[LockTech]

I starting to do projects that require tapping so I am starting to learn the ropes.

Heres my question, last year I bought my HAAS Mini and it came with 200 free "trial" hours. So I figured before jumping into purchasing the rigid tapping feature I'd try it out for a bit.

I also have never used Bobcad for any tapping, so its a learning process as well. I set up a test tapping feature in BC23 and pluged it into the usb.

Since the HAAS trial time goes by machine ON time I didnt want to turn the trial on earlier than need be. So I figured I'd see what the Mini thougt of the code posted by BC, fully expecting an error.

To my surprise the Mini seemed to run it just fine. I am sure the speeds and feeds were wrong but thats minor details.

So my question is, if the Mini will run the tap post from BC23 what is the point of turning on the "rigid tapping" feature from HAAS?

Does BC23's tap feature require a floating tap holder?

Thanks

Keith

[LockTech]

actually our bobcad is v24 not v23

[mactec54]

LockTech

Lets just say you go lucky, without the rigid tapping turned on, you would need to have the
floating tap holder, BC is not doing anything special with the code, just a standard tapping cycle

You can turn the trial rigid tapping on & off when you are done

[jrmach]

I am sure the speeds and feeds were wrong but thats minor details.



If your were using Rigid Tapping , AND YOUR Feeds were set wrong,you would of posted something a little different.Probably another WTF post.Speeds you can get away with a pretty wide range,BUT,speeds and feeds work together.Tapping feed =Pitch X Speed.AND your post processor has to have it turned on for Rigid Tapping to work,and also your Haas.
Now if you do a lot of threading,Heck yes,you want Rigid Tapping.If you don't you still will have quite an investment once you buy all the floating tap holders.PLUS it ain't near as good.Rigid Tapping,just buy the Tap and use ER collets.The price does sting a bit,you will have to decide.I have no Idea what you did?Either just plain luck or something,but by the way you wrote your post,NAH..............Watch out for those minor details

[The Engine Guy]

I starting to do projects that require tapping so I am starting to learn the ropes.

Heres my question, last year I bought my HAAS Mini and it came with 200 free "trial" hours. So I figured before jumping into purchasing the rigid tapping feature I'd try it out for a bit.

I also have never used Bobcad for any tapping, so its a learning process as well. I set up a test tapping feature in BC23 and pluged it into the usb.

Since the HAAS trial time goes by machine ON time I didnt want to turn the trial on earlier than need be. So I figured I'd see what the Mini thougt of the code posted by BC, fully expecting an error.

To my surprise the Mini seemed to run it just fine. I am sure the speeds and feeds were wrong but thats minor details.

So my question is, if the Mini will run the tap post from BC23 what is the point of turning on the "rigid tapping" feature from HAAS?

Does BC23's tap feature require a floating tap holder?

Thanks

Keith

Keith

If the speeds and feeds were wrong then it couldn`t make a thread as they are in a "fixed relationship" which simply means that the spindle rpm and the Z axis feed rate must be correct in order to get a correct thread.

If you do not have the "rigid tap" option in your HAAS control turned on then yes you should be using a floating tap holder, although in actual practice most modern machine tools are pretty accurate there is always the chance that a tap may be a little blunt and if the machine is not particularly powerful (Your HAAS Mini may not be) then it is possible for the spindle to be slowed due to the load, if you are not in the machines "rigid tap" mode then the Z axis will continue at it`s original speed and duly "rag" the thread.

When a machine is in "rigid tap" mode usually it uses the "swap axis" method of running the spindle as an Axis so it can be properly synchronized with the Z axis movement, it does this by locking one of the X or Y axis as they do not need to move when tapping and then using that axis drive card to run the spindle so it will be fully synchronized, then you don`t need a floating tap holder as if one axis slows or speeds up the other one will follow exactly and you will have a perfect thread

Either way you will have some expense, pay for the rigid tap option from HAAS or just buy a couple of floating tap holders that will take the "quick change" tap holder collets

One small downside of the rigid tap system is the reduction in tap life due to the tap always being under "force pressure" if there is the smallest discrepancy between the spindle rpm and the Z feed rate, the floating tap holder will take up any discrepancy and be kinder to the tap and the thread

Hope you don`t mind all the above, didn`t know if you understood how the rigid tapping system works or not

Regards

[jrmach]

Haas does Rigid Tapping reliable and well.Never an issue here,BUT,I don't try to do big diameter threads (1") either.Probably could though,just havn't.Tool Room has 7 1/2 hp???You be ok.

[LockTech]

I see. I wouldnt say I got lucky, I was not tapping anything but air, sorry for the confusion. I could just see the machine was going through the correct motions without having rigid tapping installed, which confused me.

Thanks for the explanation on the system Rob. That makes alot of sense. I wasnt trying to get out of purchasing rigid tapping, just was not sure what exactly it did.

So with rigid tapping turned on, I would just do a normal tapping feature within BC then? Or would the MINI need it set up differently for the "rigid tapping" to function correctly?

Keith

[jrmach]

You have to make sure it is turned on in your post processor.As far as your machine set-up,just make sure your trial is activated.The Tapping Tool Page in the tap/drill feature,in Bob , you need to select manual tools and manual speeds and feeds.IMPORTANT Speed x Pitch = Feed.In the speeds and feeds they only ask for the speed and feed when using manual tools.Example If I am tapping a 5/16"-18 .First I pick a speed,say 800 rpm.Now I need to find the feed.The math looks like this

800 x .05555 = 44.4444


800 = rpm .05555= pitch (1 divided by 18)

44.4444 you would enter as your feed.


""So with rigid tapping turned on, I would just do a normal tapping feature within BC then?""
NO,you have to do it the way I just showed,Bob don't do it right for Rigid Tapping.

[mactec54]

LockTech

Tt is very simple to do, you can write it by hand, canned cycles are already in your machine control, as soon as the control see's a G84 ( Tapping cycle ) it will then start the tapping cycle

%
O4056 (Tap .312x18tpi)
N1G17G40G80
T3M6
M8
G54
S850M3
G90G0X0.Y0.
G43Z.2H3
G84G98X0.Y0.Z-.3R.2F47.22
G80G0Z3.
M9
M5
M30
%

[Machineit]

I see. I wouldnt say I got lucky, I was not tapping anything but air, sorry for the confusion. I could just see the machine was going through the correct motions without having rigid tapping installed, which confused me.

Thanks for the explanation on the system Rob. That makes alot of sense. I wasnt trying to get out of purchasing rigid tapping, just was not sure what exactly it did.

So with rigid tapping turned on, I would just do a normal tapping feature within BC then? Or would the MINI need it set up differently for the "rigid tapping" to function correctly?

Keith

I would certainly get it turned on if you can afford to. Not only does it make it easier and quicker to just stick a tap in any holder and go, but the value of your machine for resale is higher.

Yes, the G84 & G74 cycles look exactly the same whether or not rigid tapping is turned on, but you simply can't see it with the naked eye.

I took a lightning strike in a shop I had that knocked out the software on my VF-1. When the rep. came and reloaded it, he forgot to enable my rigid tapping and I kept breaking taps and could not figured it out. Then I dawned on me and I got it turned on and all was fine.

Most Haas's have an encoder on the spindle that is used to sync it with the Z axis drive for tapping.

As far as BodCAD is concerned, it does not care which you use, it just writes the code and assumes you are using one or the other. Getting it to post it the right speeds and feeds is just a matter of setting up the post correctly etc.

One last thing is that the floating tap holders are longer than regular holders.

Mike

[jrmach]

""I took a lightning strike in a shop I had that knocked out the software on my VF-1""

Ouch !!! We had one close to our shop that sent a huge surge and took out my power board.Didn't lose software though,but still cost $ 360 in parts and about 1/2 day of my time.I turn the disconnect of every single time now.


"" Getting it to post it the right speeds and feeds is just a matter of setting up the post correctly etc."""

Hmm,did not know that.It sure is not set up that way from Bob.I use manual tools all the time,so I have not pursued it.Pretty easy to calculate and manually edit though.I take it yours post correct??I am running VF2 also,what does the post processor need to post feeds right?

[LockTech]

"One last thing is that the floating tap holders are longer than regular holders."
That's always important on a mini.

Modifying the most processor is something else I have never needed to do. I have always just used the default Haas vf pp that Bobcad comes with. So your thinking this will need some tweaking?

Lightning is a ongoing and constant fear or mine when concerning my mill.

Keith

[jrmach]

Zip up up your post processor and post it here.At the very least you have to enable rigid tapping.For it to calculate correct feeds,if it can be done,there are people on this forum who will know how to do it.


End of day,turn dis-connect to off.Hard lesson learned here.

[Machineit]

""I took a lightning strike in a shop I had that knocked out the software on my VF-1""

Ouch !!! We had one close to our shop that sent a huge surge and took out my power board.Didn't lose software though,but still cost $ 360 in parts and about 1/2 day of my time.I turn the disconnect of every single time now.


"" Getting it to post it the right speeds and feeds is just a matter of setting up the post correctly etc."""

Hmm,did not know that.It sure is not set up that way from Bob.I use manual tools all the time,so I have not pursued it.Pretty easy to calculate and manually edit though.I take it yours post correct??I am running VF2 also,what does the post processor need to post feeds right?

Yeah, hate the lightning stuff. Here in Florida, we are the lightning capital of the world. I don't worry about a direct hit as much, but Florida Power and Light has what I would call a weak system. Good prices, but during a lightning storm it will cause power outages all of the time. I run off of a phase converter and every time we get the slightest little power loss, the converter will go off and then right back on and cause a power spike. It has not caused any major damage to my Haas, but will take out the fuse on the wild leg on the Haas and so I shut down during lightning storms.

One of my customers, who also have their own machines, has the same issue. About 2 months ago I was going to deliver some parts to them and emailed them and said it was going to be a day later, because I had shut down for the storm. They wrote back and said they do the same thing, but had waited too long and got the spike at their shop. It cost them $500.00 just in fuses.

Always fun.

[LockTech]

Zip up up your post processor and post it here.At the very least you have to enable rigid tapping.For it to calculate correct feeds,if it can be done,there are people on this forum who will know how to do it.


End of day,turn dis-connect to off.Hard lesson learned here.

Here is the file.

What do you use to even open up the file to edit it?

[jrmach]

Note Pad works.

[LockTech]

Is this what it would need? If so, looks like its already in there. Lines 22 & 23

20. Spindle speed low range
"M41","(LOW RANGE SPINDLE)"

21. Spindle speed high range
"M42","(HIGH RANGE SPINDLE)"

22. Rigid tapping start.
n, "G95"

23. Rigid tapping end.
n, "G94"

24. File trailer.
"(END OF PROGRAM)"
" "
n,"M30"
"%"

25. Format for offset when using offset registers.

26. Set debug.
debug_off

[jrmach]

I looked at your post processor and it looks like it already turned on,HOWEVER,I know enough about post processors to know I ain't the "Guy" for you here.According to Machineit you can set it up to use Automatic tools correctly.I believe, if that is possible,the post needs more work.There are many people who understand the post wayyyyy better than me.We need one of those "Guys" to chime in here.

[The Engine Guy]

.

Here is how I see it, I don`t have a HAAS so I am assuming it works like most CNC Mills
If it is wrong then please someone who knows better would be more than welcome to jump in here

If your HAAS does require the G95 start and G94 end commands to be in the code then you need to check this line in your post is set correctly :-

272. Rigid tapping? y

Here I have it shown as turned on with the "y" for yes, the G95 & G94 will now be output in the code, if it is set to "n" for no then the G95 & G94 will not be output in the code so it will not call up the rigid tapping in your HAAS machine control as far as I am aware.

I have never used HAAS rigid tapping so I don`t know what G codes HAAS have assigned in the control parameters for rigid tapping, if it is the "Generic" G95 & G94 then OK but if it is different then you will also have to change lines 22 & 23 to the correct G codes.

Here is a small example of the code with rigid tap turned on :-

(TOOL #2POINT TAP)
N11 T2 M06
N12 G90 G54 X-11.358 Y15.824 S2541 M03
N13 G43 H2 D2 Z2.54 M08
N14 G95 Here you see the call to start rigid tap in the machine control
N15 G84 G99 X-11.358 Y15.824 Z-9.2 R2.54 F0.8
N16 G80
N17 G94 Here you see the call to end rigid tap in the machine control
N18 M09
N19 M05
N20 G00 G91 G28 Z0.
N21 G91 G28 Y0.
N22 T1 M06
N23 M02

Here is a small example with rigid tap turned off :-

(TOOL #2POINT TAP)
N11 T2 M06
N12 G90 G54 X-11.358 Y15.824 S2541 M03
N13 G43 H2 D2 Z2.54 M08
N14 G84 G99 X-11.358 Y15.824 Z-9.2 R2.54 F0.8
N15 G80
N16 M09
N17 M05
N18 G00 G91 G28 Z0.
N19 G91 G28 Y0.
N20 T1 M06
N21 M02

As you can see there is no G95 & G94 present in the code, therefore the rigid tap will not be called at the machine control, you would have to use floating holders with this code

You may will also need to check and set these lines in the Post to suit the output you need for your machine :-

427. Tapping feed rate (1=ipm 2=ipr)? 2
428. Feed rates other than tapping (1=ipm 2=ipr)? 1
429. Maximum spindle speed for tapping? 25000

Hope that is of some help and doesn`t confuse matters more, the code was produced in V24 using the HAAS VF post completely unmodified, if the numbers are strange to you it will be because I am working in Metric and the tap used for the example was a 5.0mm x 0.8mm pitch

Using the "System tools" you will need to double check/correctly setup your material cutting conditions Library in order to get the feeds/speeds spot on, or just use manual tools and do the math for the correct feeds/speeds for the material being used

Regards

[Machineit]

Not sure where all of this info is coming from but all you need to tap with the Haas is the G84 or G74 line:

G84 Z-.5 R.1 F25. (right hand)
or
G74 Z-.5 R.1 F25. (left hand)


No G95 or G94 or anything.

Just set your spindle speed (you can leave the direction: M03 or M04 off as that is determined by the G84 or G74 and actually saves time as the spindle does not have to start twice), and tell it where and tap.

S1000
G00 X0. Y0.
G84 Z-.5 R.1 F25.

That's it.

The post modification I mentioned was to change BobCADs way of posting feed. I could not get it to work with IPR, so set it to IPM and it was good.

Mike