[joeybagadonuts]

Dale,

When will you have some video that shows the quick change spindle actually working and doing tool changes? My pals would like to do a group buy purchase, there only request is to see one going through it's paces. If you don'ut have time to make a video I can do it if you send a engineering sample.
Your method of marketing reminds me of my old friend Yuliany and he has a great sense of humor too.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/produc...echnology.html
Unfortunately I have not heard from him for quite some time. He loved our onion and garlic bagels, I really enjoy making my friends happy, its a shame he has not been around.

JoeyB

[dwalsh62]

Dale,

When will you have some video that shows the quick change spindle actually working and doing tool changes? My pals would like to do a group buy purchase, there only request is to see one going through it's paces. If you don'ut have time to make a video I can do it if you send a engineering sample.
Your method of marketing reminds me of my old friend Yuliany and he has a great sense of humor too.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/produc...echnology.html
Unfortunately I have not heard from him for quite some time. He loved our onion and garlic bagels, I really enjoy making my friends happy, its a shame he has not been around.

JoeyB

If you want to work from an engineering sample to make a video you'll need to make a clamp for it and you'll need some tool holders and other parts, I can give you a drawing to make the clamp but we'd have to talk conditions first.

When the production run arrives I will build my spindles and rotary tool changers then look into making a video for you but I'd have to find someone who can make videos to help cause I don't think my iPhone would do it justice.

If you had tool holders and other parts I could probably loan you a shaft and finger-clamp from the production run so you could make a video if using the engineering sample doesn't work for you but you'd still need tool holders and other parts.

The conversion kit doesn't turn your spindle into a quick-change spindle, it turns your spindle into a true ATC spindle, the quick-change system (25lbs spring / 40lbs taper) slips, the ATC (240lbs spring / 380lbs taper or 350lbs srping / 560lbs taper) doesn't, the difference is about 200lbs of spring force minimum.

You do realize that the price from Brent will be almost double ($400.00 - $450.00 for shaft and clamp) and will be the finger-clamp type shown in post #1, not the petal-clamp type shown in post #31.

I'm not sure what he would offer for a volume purchase discount, if I had to guess I'd say maybe 10%-15% off and you would have to discuss this with him when he lists it in his store which wont be until after he receives his order (about 4 weeks from now it should ship to him) and as you know, he makes his own videos of products he sells so you'd be waiting until he assembles and films it before listing it in his store so don't expect it to list for 2-3 months.

I believe he is flying me out to CA in late July to help him complete his mini-mill project, I've done some work for him in the past and recently, reworked his digitizing probe for 0.0002 (2/10ths of one thou) sensitivity in any directions and a tool-height gauge with 0.0005 (half thou) sensitivity.

The only cheap run of finger-clamp / shafts and petal-clamp / shafts is happening this week so as long as your group doesn't mind the finger-clamp / shaft, waiting for your video before they buy works.

The design for the petal-clamp / shafts has already been sold and I wont be able to make any future production runs and due to contract terms I'm not permitted to divulge details about the buyer so don't ask, their are using the the design in their own spindle motor and just need to transpose the internal shaft profile into the rotor shaft so it wont be available from them.

The finger-clamp / shaft is going to A2Z so it should be available from them and Brent and the price from A2Z not likely to be as low as Brent and I don't know how long it will take A2Z to produce the products.

Contacting Brent to ask for a video was a novel concept but my thought is, why would you think he has a video for a product he doesn't currently advertise and sell?

And as a response to OPTO-ACT, it actually works, issue for us is the residue and cleanup, it seems to penetrate aluminum and when you anodize the color is not consistent, the catalyst breakdown period is also unreliable, sometimes it took 5 minutes for it to release and not the mentioned 30 seconds so our opinion is it still needs some work, oh and nylon, it was easier to remove if secured with crazy-glue than OPTO-ACT, the nylon acted as a barrier to the release agent so the catalyst wouldn't break down.

No one in our group is really a marketing guru or have the patience and time to deal with marketing a product, it's very time consuming and taxing and our time is better spent doing R&D, we rely on peoples knowledge of basic mechanics to conclude what is a good product, a glance of the petal-clamp shows you that some thought when into it and the picture is large enough that you can blow it up further without pixilation to see the intricate workings in great detail and since one of our group members makes spindle shafts as a regular part of his daily business you should be able to conclude that we have a group capable of producing a properly functioning product.

[joeybagadonuts]

Dale,

I completely understand coating problems. Our customers where complaining about our fancy Danish sweet rolls. We where applying the caramel drizzle several mm on the thick side and it was causing lots of drama. The majority of complaints where happening in the morning because most customers where on there way to work and did not have time to rinse there dentures. In the end we only reduced the caramel coating on the morning batches and now everyone is happy. We sell more delicious treats than ever before. Then there where issues with our eclairs exploding because overfilling them was causing mayhem in the bakery, well that's a story for another day.

JoeyB

[dwalsh62]

Looks like the tool holders will be going to the heat treaters on tuesday June 26, 2012, once back they just need the finish grinding.

Shafts are starting production on monday June 25, 2012 and should be done by the end of the week.

I'll post updates as things progress.

[dwalsh62]

The tool holders were sent off to the heat-treaters on tuesday, there are expected back July 6th, 2012 at which time they will be checked for deformation and then sent to the grinders.

Today we started turning the shafts and production is still on schedule, everything is expected to be completed and ready for delivery by the end of July.

[joeybagadonuts]

Dale,

Have you had a chance to make a video of the tool changer and associated parts in operation? Delivering untested parts to the end users might turn into a public relations nightmare. We got pie in the eye when we prematurely rolled out a new extra tall rising batter for Italian fried dough. Instead of sampling it first we decided to serve it at the Saint Giglio Festival. The Son's of Italy wanted to break some bones because they started having massive gas attacks, it was very embarrassing to say the least. I sure hope you and your pal's don't suffer a similar problem.

JoeyB

[dwalsh62]

Dale,

Have you had a chance to make a video of the tool changer and associated parts in operation? Delivering untested parts to the end users might turn into a public relations nightmare. We got pie in the eye when we prematurely rolled out a new extra tall rising batter for Italian fried dough. Instead of sampling it first we decided to serve it at the Saint Giglio Festival. The Son's of Italy wanted to break some bones because they started having massive gas attacks, it was very embarrassing to say the least. I sure hope you and your pal's don't suffer a similar problem.

JoeyB

Joey, the parts have been tested and they work and I wont be making a video of a tool changer and associated parts, I doubt Brent will make a tool changer to make your video, from what I understand it will be a plate that holds three or four tool holders and shows the spindle changing tool holders and you'll have to wait for him to assemble his spindle and make your video and I doubt that will be any time soon.

I'm still working on my two tool changers, nothing I will be offering for sale so sending one to Brent to video would be a waste of my time however he may obtain the controllers for a carrousel tool changer which is expected to be completed by about mid August.

The impression I got from Brent was that he would assemble a spindle and make a plate to hold three or four tool holders for your video and his goal is to show that it clamps and un-clamps tool holders which shows you the basics of tool changing, far more time than I would put into making a video.

Expecting a video of a tool changer that you will never be able to obtain makes no sense to me, any tool changer I make for myself will be far more professional that anything made for public consumption.

The end user is free to design and build a tool changer that meets their needs and they could make it available to other people but has nothing to do with me.

I may offer something in the future but it's not on my plate at this time since we have a customer specifically requesting BT15 and BT20 belt-driven flange-mount cartridge spindles (like the big ones) so we're spending our time doing R&D for the customer so no other R&D is occurring at this time, only production work and when they are done I wont be able to offer them to anyone so discussing them is a waste of time.

I have tried to get you to call me on more than one occasion, I wanted to propose something to you regarding a video but have since given up because you wouldn't call so all I can suggest to you and your group of friends is to wait for Brent's video showing the shaft changing tool holders, this will be 2-3 months down the road and continually asking about one wont speed it up and asking me for one, well that's a waste of time.

At this time Brent will only be offering the shafts and clamps as a set, he has not found a source for other components and I'm not sure how long it will take him to do that since he is currently not looking.

I have agreed to provide him with everything he needs to make one assembled sherline spindle to make his video for you so you just have to be patient and wait for him to do this and it's not a high priority for him.

The price from Brent (he tells me) when he does get them online will be around $500.00 for shaft and clamp, tool holders will be around $100.00 each, this is the price of waiting and dealing with a retail business and has nothing to do with me so if your not happy with his price don't complain to me, it's not my retail business, the chance to get them at a more reasonable price has come and gone, if you didn't take advantage of the offer you only have yourself to blame.

A2Z's shafts will be sent out early next week, (they ordered a run of shafts without finger clamps three weeks before it was publicly offered) and I have no idea what they intend on doing with them or what price they intend on selling them for if this is their intention nor can I discuss details regarding any agreement with them.

Personally, I doubt you or your group of friends will be buying anything even if a video is available, I don't ever see you committing to anything, just my honest opinion.

In case anyone hasn't figured it out, one of our group members makes spindle shafts and clamps as part of his regular business and he is the shaft expert of our group and post #31 is a good indication that we have some clue of what we are doing.

Since people like to be reassured of someones competency I have attached a picture of a clamp that was ordered by a customer, this is precision ground (over-kill), colored for better appearance, the customer ordered it this way so he paid significantly more but grinding and coloring isn't required to make it work properly, 9160 Spring Steel hardened to HRC42, correct jaw angle and good fit are all that are required for a properly functioning clamp and since it is an internal component it's not visible so why make it look so pretty when you can't see it.

[joeybagadonuts]

Dale,

Now I am really confused, the title for your thread is " Sherline/Taig affordable tool change spindle" What is it you are actually manufacturing and offering for sale?
Quoting $500.00 for a shaft and clamp might just be a little pricey considering a entire Sherline mill can be purchased for $650.00 including shipping.
See the eBay sales ad for more details. My buddy's say you might need a pistola to get paid.
If we bundle a few dozen sweet rolls with your spindle it might generate some sales but your bottom end would suffer.

JoeyB

[dwalsh62]

Dale,

Now I am really confused, the title for your thread is " Sherline/Taig affordable tool change spindle" What is it you are actually manufacturing and offering for sale?
Quoting $500.00 for a shaft and clamp might just be a little pricey considering a entire Sherline mill can be purchased for $650.00 including shipping.
See the eBay sales ad for more details. My buddy's say you might need a pistola to get paid.
If we bundle a few dozen sweet rolls with your spindle it might generate some sales but your bottom end would suffer.

JoeyB

Joey, wake up and smell the coffee, I do not own HubbardCNC, they are a customer and what they sell their products for has nothing to do with us.

Your buddy is an idiot or you aren't explaining things clearly to him, the fee Brent charges has nothing to do with us, I don't see any of the profit, I don't have anything to do with his pricing or sales, he is nothing more than a customer who got in on the purchase so your friend thinking I need a pistol to get paid is nothing more than a sign that he has no clue what is going on or offered because he has been misinformed by you.

Don't try to compare that machine you provide the ebay link for to anything that people would be using in a CNC capacity, the base needs changing as you can see it's extremely small and it would cost at least $1500.00 to make it CNC ready if the user did all the work themselves and fabricated everything.

As far as the thread title goes, it only applies to those who ordered the products through me during the time of the offer.

You wanted to wait for Brent to make a video before buying was your decision, you couldn't contact me as I requested more than once to work something out so now your only option to buy is to buy at retail and I have no control over the retail price as I don't own the store but it will still be far less than what you will pay from other sources.

The price is around $2800.00+ for a CNC sherline mill last time I checked and as far as I know, I am the only person who made a CNC look-alike (can't state copy or clone) that came in an enclosure for $2000.00 and I did post a picture of it so look for it if you want to see it.

If you had been reading all my posts you would see I was offering a spindle conversion kit to convert an existing sherline spindle to a BT15/ISO15 ATC spindle.

Thinking you would receive a complete tool changer, electronics, valvles and assembled ATC spindle for $280.00 is so unrealistic I can't even begin to point out what is wrong with your logic.

Brent's retail price is far better than IMSsas's price and with Brent you don't need to buy 20pcs to get his price but you have to buy 20pcs minimum from IMSsas.

The opportunity to get one at production cost was offered to you, you didn't want to take advantage of the offer because you wanted to wait for a video that Brent will make and of course the option to purchase at the offered price disappeared with your decision to wait and buy later.

I laid out the prices for all the parts of a spindle conversion, I provided manufacturing prices not retail prices so people could get the best possible deal, people could purchase the parts they wanted and saved even more by making use of parts they have on hand, I am not a retail store, I don't have the time (or interest) to manage one so expecting the opportunity to be available later when I state it wont be is your mistake.

A tool changer could be a stationary rack that holds the tools to an elaborate arm or carrousel system and is only limited by your pocket book and imagination.

A simple stationary holder with 6 holes made out of aluminum, 6 tool holders and the conversion kit and parts could be bought for less than $800.00 and would meet most peoples needs, a simple arm or carrousel changer could be made for around $500.00 or less depending on your skills and resources and could be added later as an expansion option, stamping a dish and making a pretty carrousel changer costs more and usually involves resources most people want to avoid the cost of and find suitable substitutes like a round cake pan.

The cost of the RapidChanger by High-Tech Systems (the QuickChange that slips) was over $3500.00 and now discontinued.

The ISO10 system that was available also slipped, only came in ER11 collet tool holders so no tool larger than 6mm or 7mm could be used and if you break a retention knob you buy a new tool holder because they were integrated and the system cost more than $4500.00 if you converted your spindle yourself, more than $5500 if they converted your spindle for you but the maker has also discontinued it because of the issues with tool slippage and broken retention knobs, this is typical of ball bearing type tool holder retention knob clamps and the reason we didn't consider them, they tend to eat retention knobs.

Moving up to ISO15/BT15 allowed for a higher tool holder retention force to prevent slipping, a regular duty (finger-clamp) allows 240lbs of pulling force and the HD version (petal-clamp) allows 380lbs, a far cry from the 25lbs of force from the QuickChange and 40lbs of the ISO10 available options.

What I'm offering allowed you to obtain a better tooling change system which had more force reducing the rick of slipping and all you had to do was assemble it yourself and make a tool changer that meets your needs, I'm sure I could have gotten you or someone else to perform the conversion for the less capable and would charge them a fee to perform the work, I wouldn't receive any of it because this would have been a service offered by someone else and has nothing to do with me.

If you want a complete tool change system for a sherline mill I'm sure our group would be happy to design something for you but you would be looking at 50 complete systems minimum and the cost would still be significantly more than $280.00 per system, a contract and 50% of the funds up front to begin and the balance due upon completion, then anyone wanting one could only get it from you and contract terms would prevent us from discussing specific details or selling your product and what you charge for it is your business.

[dwalsh62]

Of the eight people who contacted me from here, only Jose Santini and Hans Geittmann didn't pay, in fact they just stopped communicating, not even the courtesy of informing me they changed their mind, good thing I wasn't counting on them to make the quantity quota.

The others were told of the amount they needed to pay and they paid, one paid late but still paid, he had the courtesy to tell me he would be a couple of days late and explained why and the reason was understandable.

A couple also bought a BT30 spindle and matching pneumatic/hydraulic cylinder (no more available) which were delivered more than 60 days ago and I don't see any complaints posted and someone from Orlando, Florida on the mechmate site bought one of my 3KW ER20 High Speed Spindles (the cheap smaller copy is available on ebay for about 2/3rd the price) and I don't see anything negative posted about it anywhere.

In fact, anything that is negative in nature is from people who have not purchased anything from me, negative because they expected me to do things specifically for them that I refused to do or didn't have the time to do.

I can't find one complaint about a product I have sold to anyone from here or anywhere else.

[dwalsh62]

As promised I would post an update on the 3-axis/4-axis controller, Hubbard CNC should be offering them in their store soon if not already.

I've sold all the ones I have so contacting me to buy one at cost price is no longer an option.

These are 4-axis boards with 3 TB6560AHQ drivers on board a port for the 4th axis means connecting a single axis driver (he has the matching driver) gives you 4-axis, PWM and relays for spindle control, the board is better quality than the blue boards available on ebay, a video will be made of the board and you will see that the stepper motors run much quieter on this board since it uses a different current sense circuit (you wont see big resistors) but hey, don't take my word for it, make up your own mind.

[dwalsh62]

For those interested, here is an animation of a vertical style rotary tool changer, the plans should be available soon and I'll post a link to the source when I get it.

I'm told the cost of the plans will be around $39.95 and a kit should be available for the hard parts.

[joeybagadonuts]

Dale,

Maybe a few of your customers will post reviews of the products they purchased, that might make a few extra new sales too. In the beginning we where a lot like you standing on a street corner peddling cheap freshly fried doughnuts to the average Joe. It was tuff going until we hired a dancing monkey to attract attention to the doughnut cart and business started to snowball. If you don't like the monkey idea dressing up in a clown suit is a alternative we have employed on several occasions. Unfortunately last time my buddy contacted HubbardCNC they did not have any of your products for sale. If you make us a authorized distributor we could make a little bit of room on the doughnut counter for a few of your sample products, that would be better than letting them sit in a warehouse rusting in China. We are ready for a new and exciting challenge.

JoeyB

[fretsman]

For those interested, here is an animation of a vertical style rotary tool changer, the plans should be available soon and I'll post a link to the source when I get it.

I'm told the cost of the plans will be around $39.95 and a kit should be available for the hard parts.

Interesting, it's been done before (a loooooong time ago), and for the same price even?

Even the same animation as well??????

Automatic Tool Changer Plans

[mactec54]

fretsman

Yes Joe's auto tool changer for Sherling machines has been around for many years, he even won an award for it

Automatic Tool Changer Plans

[fretsman]

fretsman

Yes Joe's auto tool changer for Sherling machines has been around for many years, he even won an award for it

Automatic Tool Changer Plans

Yes, I just emailed him and he's now aware of this thread.

[dwalsh62]

Dale,

Maybe a few of your customers will post reviews of the products they purchased, that might make a few extra new sales too. In the beginning we where a lot like you standing on a street corner peddling cheap freshly fried doughnuts to the average Joe. It was tuff going until we hired a dancing monkey to attract attention to the doughnut cart and business started to snowball. If you don't like the monkey idea dressing up in a clown suit is a alternative we have employed on several occasions. Unfortunately last time my buddy contacted HubbardCNC they did not have any of your products for sale. If you make us a authorized distributor we could make a little bit of room on the doughnut counter for a few of your sample products, that would be better than letting them sit in a warehouse rusting in China. We are ready for a new and exciting challenge.

JoeyB

To be an authorized distributor you would have to make volume purchases over a period of time and you aren't making any purchases.

To offer distributorships implies we are making and stocking the products and we don't stock anything but raw material and I don't see anyone stepping up to fund mass production and storage so this is not likely to occur.

Sitting in a warehouse rusting in china?

Must be an idiom I am not familiar with.

I do not recommend any of my customers post about their purchases, far too many people here have nothing better to do than create drama and we have all seen how vicious some people can be that I would prefer they just avoid the drama and enjoy their product in public silence.

Of course if you had made a purchase, you could have made your own decision regarding posting details of your purchase, now all you can do is wait and post details of your spindle shaft and finger-clamp retail purchase from HubbardCNC.

You did read that in a previous post that the finger-clamp version is what HubbardCNC and A2Z will be selling right?

Only those purchasing from me at the time of my offer were given the option to upgrade to the petal-clamp for an additional $30.00 making the cost $280.00.

The mini petal clamp is something I have decided to retain for myself for other/future uses since I put a lot of time into it's development and quite proud of the results.

[dwalsh62]

Interesting, it's been done before (a loooooong time ago), and for the same price even?

Even the same animation as well??????

Automatic Tool Changer Plans

Yes he was contacted before I made the post and asked if he would consider making a version for ISO15/BT15 but has not responded at this time so I am unable to provide any more information regarding the results of our communication, of course if he declines I think I can find someone to take the plans and modify it to fit the ISO15/BT15 tool holders so we have to wait and see what transpires.

[fretsman]

Yes he was contacted before I made the post and asked if he would consider making a version for ISO15/BT15 but has not responded at this time so I am unable to provide any more information regarding the results of our communication, of course if he declines I think I can find someone to take the plans and modify it to fit the ISO15/BT15 tool holders so we have to wait and see what transpires.

Actually in his email to me, he's not happy about what you're pulling here.

So glad I decided to stay away from your dealings, that's for sure......

[dwalsh62]

Actually in his email to me, he's not happy about what you're pulling here.

So glad I decided to stay away from your dealings, that's for sure......

He's not happy about what I am pulling here?

What lies are you telling him to make him unhappy??

What am I pulling here?

Funny, he never responded to my e-mail so I would have to conclude you are not telling the truth because I would think that if I was doing something wrong in his eyes he would contact me about it and he hasn't.

The way I see it, I contacted him about a tool changer in the appropriate size, made a request, offered him what he needs for development and left a post here that something is being looked at, if he agrees, then a link will be posted for those who want to purchase one form him, if he declines then we look at other options.

You must be one of those drama creators because you're already implying something wrong without knowing any of the details or the intelligence to ask.

He has no reason to be upset, he hasn't responded to my e-mail so I have to conclude you are fabricating information or distorting the information you do have and if you are having direct communication with him you must be misleading him with fiction.

You are a prime example of someone creating drama because they lack the intelligence to understand what is going on or make an effort to find out.

My advise to you fretsman, don't open your mouth about things you know nothing about or at least have enough common sense to find out before you spread bu11$hit.

He sells his plans, he makes kits of the hard parts, do you think that his plans aren't available through other means and that he couldn't be cut out of the loop altogether if I was devious enough to steal it why would I contact him?

If I was doing something wrong I would take his plans, make the modifications required and produce the thing without contacting him or giving him credit for his work, not contact him about it and see if something can be worked out between us.

If he declines so be it, I'm sure there are other people with time and competency who can produce a viable product.

All you've done here by posting your bu11$hit is to create drama for your own amusement.

If he's really bent out of shape over something and he hasn't responded to me then he's not worth doing business with because I haven't done anything wrong or implied I am doing something wrong.

One of the guys saw the product, we discussed it, I contacted him about making something in the required size and made a post that something will be available and a link would be posted and that's it so tell me why I now have to defend what I'm doing because you're not the brightest light on the xmas tree?

If he wont make the modifications we will look for someone with time to make the modifications and build a prototype, I have seen several that look just like this one so I'm positive something can be created.

Should I just steal his plans, make the modifications and sell the product right under his nose, is this what you are expecting from me, if so, you don't know me.

We liked his design concept, it is too small for ISO15/BT15 tool holders but that is just a design modification and the reason we contacted him, if he has the time and interest great, if not, we can continue looking or find someone with time to make the modifications.

He doesn't provide one for the required size so it's not like we're taking his product away from him and several others have built similar styles of tool changers so it's just a matter of finding someone who makes this style to make one that fits the ISO15/BT15 tool holders and I don't care who offers it as long as something is available.

This raises questions, why would he respond to you so quickly and multiple times and not respond once to my contact?

Are you two like best friends or something that you can mislead him so easily into believing that I'm doing something wrong?

I think you owe me an apology.