[CNC-Dude]

Hi Group,

The beauty about Open Source is that ANYBODY and EVERYBODY can have access to the content the community has worked on. Since Tormach is following this approach, I think we should take advantage of this opportunity.

Who is this for?

If you have Tormach's TMC, then you are OK. Tormach will support you and there is no need for you to monkey around with the computer or the SW.

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

If you want to be able to briefly customize the PP experience and add your own CNC flavor, then this may be the only way.

Implications:

What I am asking is to see if there is an interest to form a community group of OSPP (Open Source Path Pilot, which I am just going to code call Hack-Piper).

We would not bug Tormach with questions, as this would be our own endeavor and we realize they are already busy folks. The community group would be in charge of answering questions as they become available, with CNC Zone (or any other forum) most likely being the place to post/answer said questions.

Anybody with a computer could purchase the MESA card, download the Linux distributable with the Hack-Piper version and install it in their computer and at their own risk (low risk, though).

First Questions which would need to be answered:

1. Where is the repository where all of this Open Source code resides today?
2. What MESA card is being utilized?

I think there is tremendous potential for the community to make Hack-Piper happen. Come on Dudes and Dudettes!

[alan_3301]

Good idea.
I don't have a tormach, but would love to see the software, to play with and get ideas for my own linuxcnc applications.

I have never read the GNU GPL from top to bottom, but it seems that the whole of the software which included modified form of software under the GNU GPL license (LinuxCNC), must be available in source form,
for the price of copying / distribution (price of CD plus labor time to copy it)

It may be up to someone with a TMC already to document the hardware inside it, and distribute the software (Doesn't seem they would be breaking any laws).
It would be nice if tormach would host the software/source for all to access. I would gladly pay $2.99 for the bandwidth to download it from them,
They are machine builders after all, not a software company. I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future.

[treyjugson]

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

This didn't take long. You can't be honest and pay Tormach for their hard work? This sure sounds like trying to pirate their software. I'll bet cnczone won't let allow this Hacking on their site.

[wendtmk]

This didn't take long. You can't be honest and pay Tormach for their hard work? This sure sounds like trying to pirate their software. I'll bet cnczone won't let allow this Hacking on their site.

It's not piracy if you are modifying open source software. That's the whole idea behind open source.

[Joe Jones]

" I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future."


So a man spends a few days hitting and kicking his refrigerator, trying to make it work again.

finally, he gives up and called a repairman.

The repairman arrives, looks at the fridge, places his hands at ttwo different locations and kicks the refrigerator. It begins working perfectly.

"That will be $100.00, sir!" the repairman proclaims.

"$100.00 !!? For kicking the fridge?! I did that for several days myself! You just got lucky. that's all. I want an itemized bill!"

"Fine." said the repairman, and he wrote out an itemized bill:

"Kicking the refrigerator. - $5.00
Knowing WHERE to kick the refrigerator - $25.00
Knowing HOW HARD to kick the refrigerator - $70.00"

I know nothing about "Tormach" but I DO know that if they have put in the time and effort to develop a product and/or software that "everyone wants," it is probably worth the price.

[wtopace]

If on the other hand you are like me and many others, and have your own computer, there is no way to get PP (unless you buy a TMC, of course).

The question was asked last night in the webinar if Tormach will sell the card and software to white-box computer owners and Tormach responded by saying: Yes, they will sell you the kit, but they cannot possibly support each and every hardware configuration, so Tormach support will only be available for the TMC.

To me, this means if you want to pony up the $95, they should ship you a beta kit and let you fend for yourself.

Disclaimer: If you are a software guy with spare time and motivation, by all means get involved with LinuxCNC! I wish I wasn't always so burned out after my final commits at the end of the day for my real job =(

[CNC-Dude]

Any act of illegality on this movement and I will be the first one to drop out of this movement. Here are the facts:

1. A system running Linux to control our Tormachs has way much more future than the Windows counterpart. At some point in time, we may be forced to move to the Linux environment no matter what.

2. I have no problem in paying Tormach what they deserve and if I ever buy a TMC I will be sure to pay, not to steal it. Do note that whatever I get from Tormach is what I will end up with. There will be no way to modify this. And it may be OK, but maybe it will not be OK. There are some areas which seem problematic, such as touch screens, support to other pendants, etc. And there is no way I can adapt to be network-less. I need my network!

3. People with our own computers (which is advantageous for many reasons) won't be able to enjoy from the PP offering. Let's face it! Tormach has already sold over 4000 machines and if there is even 10% of those with their own computers, that is 400 guys asking questions to Tormach who have not paid Tormach. Why would Tormach spend their time supporting us? I am amazed they still spend some of their time supporting us! But I am literally already "stealing" some of their time by asking questions on stuff that pertains to a computer they didn't sell me. BTW, I bet there is more than 10% of Tormach users who have their own computers, so in essence we are helping Tormach not having to deal with this mass of individuals.

4. If we form a community of users who can support this movement, then Tormach doesn't have to worry about us asking them questions on "this and this" feature.

I may be wrong on this one, but I don't think Tormach developed PP so they could profit on PP. They developed PP so they could profit from selling PCNC's. To try and sell a PCNC without a controller is an ill fated business model. Apparently Windows and MACH3 represented a series of problems which they might have solved with the Unix environment and LinuxCNC.

To create an Open Source movement to complement PP is not trying to steal Tormach business. If it is, I AM OUT! I will need to be proven that I am a potential thief by suggesting this course of action. I like Tormach as a company and I have nothing other than positive feelings towards the team, who has been helping me (WITHOUT HESITATION!) for the past 4 years, even when I didn't buy either of my machines directly from them.

My idea with this movement is to complement the offering, not to compete. I think there is a market for PP and those folks who want an embedded system they do not want to mess with. And then there is a market for those folks who want to have access to their system. But the responsible thing is for the later not to bug down Tormach with questions.

I also understand there is no way every body will agree with these points of view.

[CNC-Dude]

The question was asked last night in the webinar if Tormach will sell the card and software to white-box computer owners and Tormach responded by saying: Yes, they will sell you the kit, but they cannot possibly support each and every hardware configuration, so Tormach support will only be available for the TMC.

To me, this means if you want to pony up the $95, they should ship you a beta kit and let you fend for yourself.

Disclaimer: If you are a software guy with spare time and motivation, by all means get involved with LinuxCNC! I wish I wasn't always so burned out after my final commits at the end of the day for my real job =(

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

[treyjugson]

It's not piracy if you are modifying open source software. That's the whole idea behind open source.

If Path Pilot is open source then why is it only provided to Tormach customers and why is this thread here to try to obtain a copy without paying for it?

" I would never buy a tormach machine to get the software, but there is a tiny chance that the path pilot software experience, may lead to a tormach machine in my future."


So a man spends a few days hitting and kicking his refrigerator, trying to make it work again.

finally, he gives up and called a repairman.

The repairman arrives, looks at the fridge, places his hands at ttwo different locations and kicks the refrigerator. It begins working perfectly.

"That will be $100.00, sir!" the repairman proclaims.

"$100.00 !!? For kicking the fridge?! I did that for several days myself! You just got lucky. that's all. I want an itemized bill!"

"Fine." said the repairman, and he wrote out an itemized bill:

"Kicking the refrigerator. - $5.00
Knowing WHERE to kick the refrigerator - $25.00
Knowing HOW HARD to kick the refrigerator - $70.00"

I know nothing about "Tormach" but I DO know that if they have put in the time and effort to develop a product and/or software that "everyone wants," it is probably worth the price.

Very well said sir.

[wendtmk]

Path Pilot is LinuxCNC based. The fella that wrote the new trajectory planner for LinuxCNC also wrote the Path Pilot stuff.

Tormach Moves From Mach3 to LinuxCNC: PathPilot - CNCCookbook CNCCookbook

[CNC-Dude]

Just chatted with Tormach. They clarified that you can only purchase the upgrade if you own one of the latest TMC's.

They also told me that since PP is Open Source and in full compliance with the GPL, I can request a CD with the code.

It is possible, however, that anybody requesting the Open Source code won't be able to divulge the code. In that case, starting an Open Source group may be unlawful and rest assured I will not pursue (or endorse) such course of action.

I will continue discussions with Tormach and see where the boundaries lie.

I still think there is value in pursuing an Open Source group for tinkerers. But only if we are not endangering anybody's integrity and breaking the law in the process. Will keep the group posted.

[ger21]

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

[CNC-Dude]

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

Well, there are many ways to skin the cat. It is my impression, however, that if I start from LinuxCNC 2.7 I would need to reinvent the wheel and find all the configuration parameters for the PCNC1100. Since Path Pilot already contains all of these values, I can save on that step.

Allow me to say that I am not the ultimate expert on this area. And what I have seen is that the great majority of us are really not super connoisseurs either. Which is why I think this needs to be a community effort, regardless of whether we do this with LinuxCNC or PathPilot. Way much more questions than answers!

Has anybody shared a PCNC1100 config file for LinuxCNC? This could easily be a nice startup course of action to consider!

[Hirudin]

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

I've been wondering that too.

I suppose a good place to start would be to assess what, exactly, is different between "vanilla" LinuxCNC and PathPilot. Is it primarily just the UI and conversational programming interface?

[treyjugson]

You don't have to reinvent anything if you just pay Tormach for their upgrade and you get real support with it. You say you aren't out to take money out of their pocket but seem determined to not have to pay and to show others how not to have to pay. Who cares if you also put Path Pilot in the hands of the competition which is obviously something Tormach is trying to prevent. With friends like you...

[rowbare]

For me an interesting area of development would be to add to the available conversational wizards. On last night's webinar I asked if they will be documenting or publishing an API to allow people to do so. Daniel said it they will likely be doing that but it would probably be about 6 months or so after the release.

It would be cool to have an open source library of useful wizards. For example I would like to have a wizard to do multi-tool operations say spot, drill and tap or countersink a series of holes.

Another thing that would be nice would be to be able to define and save snippets for each wizard. For instance you may have a standardized mount of some sort. It would be useful to be able to call up a snippet that defines the mating face and adds it to your design.

bob

[Hirudin]

You don't have to reinvent anything if you just pay Tormach for their upgrade and you get real support with it. You say you aren't out to take money out of their pocket but seem determined to not have to pay and to show others how not to have to pay. Who cares if you also put Path Pilot in the hands of the competition which is obviously something Tormach is trying to prevent. With friends like you...

Open source software was a poor choice if they're trying to keep it out of other people's hands. Get a clue.

[treyjugson]

Open source software was a poor choice if they're trying to keep it out of other people's hands. Get a clue.

Ok, call Tormach yourself and request a copy then let us know how that goes.

[kstrauss]

I purchased my Tormach with a TMC so getting PP should not be an issue for me. Since Tormach is selling the Mesa card for approximately the MSRP they aren't making a lot on the card + software. Their real win for them is to have a more competitive product with software that they can fix/extend.

My understanding of "open source" is that various people contribute and, in turn, others can use and extend the product themselves. THIS IS NOT "STEALING" BUT MERELY FOLLOWING THE RULES! Please explain why you feel this is "stealing".

For me an interesting area of development would be to add to the available conversational wizards. On last night's webinar I asked if they will be documenting or publishing an API to allow people to do so. Daniel said it they will likely be doing that but it would probably be about 6 months or so after the release.

It would be cool to have an open source library of useful wizards. For example I would like to have a wizard to do multi-tool operations say spot, drill and tap or countersink a series of holes.

Another thing that would be nice would be to be able to define and save snippets for each wizard. For instance you may have a standardized mount of some sort. It would be useful to be able to call up a snippet that defines the mating face and adds it to your design.

bob

What rowbare suggests is exactly the advantage of open source. Another addition that would be appreciated by many is adding support for various common pendants such as the ones from VistaCNC.

Keeping the suggested forum here seems like a good idea. What has to be done to add a new group to CNC Zone? Wherever the group is hosted please count me in!

[hoss2006]

Ok, call Tormach yourself and request a copy then let us know how that goes.

For what it's worth, I don't own a Tormach but tried ordering just the PP upgrade software from the site for curiosities sake.
The order went thru, $10 total shipped however I just got an email saying they have no record of me purchasing a machine.
If I can't get back to them and provide my machine serial number they will not be able to sell this item to me and will have to issue a refund.
c'est la vie
This has peaked my curiosity in LinuxCNC again though and this thread in particular, I have a Vistacnc pendant that I can't use with Mach 4 either.
Hoss