[ihavenofish]

Defeng~

I believe you should ship whatever product you have to those who paid money and then waited patiently for over a year to hear from you.

We all understand health-related issues, and my sympathy goes to you, but now is not the time to discuss upgrades. Ship the man his machine.

~john

remember, ians machine, like ian, is special haha. its all non stock at this point. pretty badass too actually.



on the bt30. its better than the iso20 because tools are everywhere, and varied. iso20 is only a handful of expensive er chucks. BUT, BT30 really is just too big for the svm-0. there are a couple suppliers in china and the US that can make custom iso20 holders in small runs for not a huge amount of money ($40-$100 per tool holder). you cant just get one though. thats the main issue.

[handlewanker]

Thanks Ian. ISO30/BT30 are very popular in the word and it will be surely happy to accept by users. But for SVM-0,, I'm afraid the spindle size and tool holder length will reduce Z traveling too much..lol for SVM-1/2, I'm sure ISO/BT30 will be a good option. Clearly SVM-0 is a desktopl mini CNC in my machine family so I think ER spindle will be a good start point. And for special users like you, high speed spindle or ISO20 will be a good and easy choice.

and today I got the specially ordered stainless head cover for your SVM-0. The big hole on the top of the spindle unit will allow to install the power drawabar cylinder. I specially design and ordered a type of electric cylinder for the power drawbar to replace the air cylinder considering personal users may have no air source in home or workroom. I will receive it after several days.. So, do you want me to install it on your SVM-0?
Attachment 276148 Attachment 276150

Hi Defeng......the belt guard looks fantastic.....better than one I could make up and look the part.

On the subject of the power draw bar and the electric cylinder, that would be more preferable than an air cylinder.

Could you post a pic of the actual electric cylinder......I originally planned to get a linear actuator with a 50mm travel which has 350 lb of thrust......and fit it to a split collar clamped around the top end of the spindle body where it sticks out of the head casting.......if 350lb would not be enough to depress the drawbar, I'd then fit a short lever with a 2:1 ratio and so get 700lb which I think is enormous for the ISO 20 tools.

Perhaps your device will fit and work better........let me know the extra cost......Paypal?

I like the idea of a complete package ready to go....or turnkey as they say.......this would prevent scratched paintwork from having to disassemble the top cover and maybe drill holes etc when I get the mill......at the same time, anyone else with spindle options in mind would also need to have a power draw bar solution as part of the package.

I'll wait to hear from you.

I mentioned the ISO 30 spindle as I assumed it was also available, but as you say that would probably be overkill for the SVM-0.......LOL.......some people would lick their lips and say "if only".
Ian.

[bhurts]

ihavenofish
Check out these links for iso20 toolholders on eBay. Hopefully they keep selling them for some time.

1pcs High Precision ISO20 ER20 Collet Chuck CNC Milling and Turning Toolholder | eBay

Precision ISO20 ER20 Collet Chuck Holder 30 000RPM ISO Spindle Holder CNC Mill | eBay

ISO20 ER20M Collet Chuck Holder ER20 Tool Holder 25000rpm Balance Holder New | eBay

Precision ISO20 ER16 Collet Chuck Holder 30 000RPM ISO Spindle Holder CNC Mill | eBay

Ben

[handlewanker]

Hi, at those prices quoted on EBAY, how can you go wrong.

I doubt anyone would want to have a single fixed collet chuck on the spindle when the ISO 20 is available, even for hobby use......changing tools with the ER system is tedious if you only have one chuck.

I've opted to have the ISO 20 spindle for the SVM-0 with tool holders having the ER32 chuck.....not because I want to do big ploughing cuts with large end mills, but because I already have 2 sets of collets and it allows more rigidity for deep side milling when you have a finish to do.....also when you want to mill the face of a piece of material.

The aspect ratio of a 20mm diam cutter 50mm long is as rigid as you'd need......if they stock them in that size.....probably indexable tip end mills will do the trick too.
Ian.

[Skyfire]

lol Ian, I knew it will be a trouble on your side to make the power drawbar and test it to work well. 350lb is far from what the ISO20 need. It's tool pulling force is about 420lb. And the releasing force need to be around 800lb. So even a 2:1 lever is not safe.. a 50mm traveling is also a little big and make the linear actor length about 230-250mm I guess. I asked for the actor to be as short as possible with 1400lb thrust. And I asked it be made with a standard air cylinder mount dimensions. So user can use air cylinder or electric cylinder freely. I will show it when receiving the sample.

cost is not a deal now. one thing can be sure of is it will be cheaper than air cylinder system. I just hope it works well..lol.. it should be.

After I test it works well, I will make it an option to go with ISO20 and BT30 and R8 QTC spindle.. it will work with all of them. I'm sure it will be a better solution for users than making one with common linear actor on market.

Yes, ISO30 is too big for SVM-0.. ISO20 is just fitful size and tooling resource is not a problem at least for me

[ihavenofish]

ihavenofish
Check out these links for iso20 toolholders on eBay. Hopefully they keep selling them for some time.

1pcs High Precision ISO20 ER20 Collet Chuck CNC Milling and Turning Toolholder | eBay

Precision ISO20 ER20 Collet Chuck Holder 30 000RPM ISO Spindle Holder CNC Mill | eBay

ISO20 ER20M Collet Chuck Holder ER20 Tool Holder 25000rpm Balance Holder New | eBay

Precision ISO20 ER16 Collet Chuck Holder 30 000RPM ISO Spindle Holder CNC Mill | eBay

Ben

links dont work, but the titles say it all. a few er chucks. wheres the face mill, fly cutter, modular tools, high feed mills. there is no selection.

er20 will suit perhaps 70% of ones work, but that extra 30% is not accommodated. someone needs to make a broader tool selection.

[mcphill]

Hi M,,

I just made a briefing of the BLDC driver. It's simple and should easy to understand.
Attachment 276162
BLDC DRIVER program set:
1. press "set/enter" ->F0 press "set/enter again"->show1401->press "UP""DOWN" to show "1111"->press "set/enter" to unlock the program.
2. press "UP" "DOWN" to select a function to set parameters.
3. "F4" to set MAX speed. your driver should set 5000 or 6000. after adjust the number, press "set/enter"to confirm your input.
4. "F6" to select the speed control signal source.
0=speed control by "UP/DOWN" keys on the panel;
1=speed control via 0-10V or 0-5V analoge voltage. Don't use both together!
2=speed control via PWM duty. 0-95% refer 0-max speed.

5. "F8" low speed range P parameter. "10-100" may be the best range. if P is too big, may cause over current when accelerating. if P is too small, motor will accelerate slow and torque is weak.
6. "F9" low speed range I parameter. 10-150" may be the best range. turn I bigger, the motor will be more sensitive to speed changing. turn I smaller, the motor will response slow and may cause speed not stable.
7. "F10" high speed range P parameter.
8. "F11" high speed range I parameter.
9. "F12" exit program set.

Don't have to re-power up the driver to make the parameters effect.

I hope I listed everything clearly and right.lol Any detail questions can ask me directly via email also.

Defeng

Defeng,

Thanks for these instructions, that should be all I need. So the P and I values will need to be determined by experimentation, the controller does not have an "auto configure" based on running the spindle? Would these values change based on the too used, for instance a 1/8" mill versus a huge (off-center load) single point face milling tool?

[MetalZilla]

Very interesting!

[handlewanker]

Hi Havno......if you have a selection of shanks with ER 32 chucks like I opted for, you can use TTS type tooling with parallel shanks.

This would cover a boring head, drill chucks.....much easier to change drills in a drill chuck than ER collets......other tooling would be anything that has a parallel 19mm shank, so made up fly cutters for facing cuts and indexed tip end mills broaden the range.....how far do you want to go with a small table top mill?

I think having a number of 10mm keyed chucks is cheaper than doubling, trebling, quadrupling etc.....up on ER collets for drills.....sometimes you need 3 or 4 of the same collet size to just do a bit of drilling, and you can never tell when you need multi other collet sizes which can be quite an inventory in the end......one drill chuck can cover 0 to 10mm.

Compared to collet chucks, drill chucks seldom run as true, but for drilling that is not a problem.

For tapping, I'd use a spring tapper with a clutch as this is simple and effective as well as quite cheap.

I have slitting saws and holders with parallel shanks too, so no problem.

I doubt whether large diam multi insert facing mills will be of any use as they need so much power to drive them, more suited to production machines where time is important, whereas the CNC operation is all about letting the machine do the work in it's own time and capability without me standing over it waiting for the cut to go through.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

lol Ian, I knew it will be a trouble on your side to make the power drawbar and test it to work well. 350lb is far from what the ISO20 need. It's tool pulling force is about 420lb. And the releasing force need to be around 800lb. So even a 2:1 lever is not safe.. a 50mm traveling is also a little big and make the linear actor length about 230-250mm I guess. I asked for the actor to be as short as possible with 1400lb thrust. And I asked it be made with a standard air cylinder mount dimensions. So user can use air cylinder or electric cylinder freely. I will show it when receiving the sample.

cost is not a deal now. one thing can be sure of is it will be cheaper than air cylinder system. I just hope it works well..lol.. it should be.

After I test it works well, I will make it an option to go with ISO20 and BT30 and R8 QTC spindle.. it will work with all of them. I'm sure it will be a better solution for users than making one with common linear actor on market.

Yes, ISO30 is too big for SVM-0.. ISO20 is just fitful size and tooling resource is not a problem at least for me

Hi D......I hadn't realised that so much force was necessary to hold and release the tooling in the spindle with the ISO taper system and retainer pull plugs.

I had always assumed you only needed a large amount of force when TTS type tooling is to be retained and released etc, as that is all that keeps the TTS tooling in the collet and prevents draw down.

I'll wait until you post the results for your system.

LOL.......forgive me, I'm going to be cheeky now.........I suppose a rudimentary ATC can be had by using the end of the table to have a magazine with about 6 tools in a 3X2 block in it........ but possibly that would be a waste of time if more are needed, but if the space can be sacrificed, that would be awesome.
Ian.

[yulolaf]

Are you saying TTS tooling into an ER32 chuck? What a waste of z travel that will be. You are completely missing the point of TTS in the first place. TTS is used with an R8 or MT3 spindle and a 3/4 collet so the TTS tool can be quckly changed and seat against the spindle face for repeatable Z height. Your atc idea is nothing new and has been done time and again.

[louieatienza]

Hi D......I hadn't realised that so much force was necessary to hold and release the tooling in the spindle with the ISO taper system and retainer pull plugs.

I had always assumed you only needed a large amount of force when TTS type tooling is to be retained and released etc, as that is all that keeps the TTS tooling in the collet and prevents draw down.

I'll wait until you post the results for your system.

LOL.......forgive me, I'm going to be cheeky now.........I suppose a rudimentary ATC can be had by using the end of the table to have a magazine with about 6 tools in a 3X2 block in it........ but possibly that would be a waste of time if more are needed, but if the space can be sacrificed, that would be awesome.
Ian.

LOL it wasn't too long ago when you were worried about X travels being diminished by the use of an outrigger spindle. You would have to put the ATC rack within the travels of the machine... or devise a mechanism to retract the rack between tool changes.

My router spindle has an ER nut, and if I'm changing tools with the same shank, it takes less than a minute to do so, and less than a minute to Z out the tool. If I have to swap collets, that adds another 30 seconds to the process. If I knew I had a production run that required multiple tool changes, and ATC would be nice... Sure manually changing tools takes a little longer than pressing a button to change a tool, but I don't find it much a fuss for most all the one-off stuff I work on. I even made a quickie touch-off plate that I never use, since I find it faster to just re-zero manually. Plus if you plan to let your machine meander in tiny increments, does an extra minute or two matter then?

Point being, you should familiarize yourself with the rudimentary operations first, before you saddle yourself with so many options and tooling that may be rarely if ever used. The exception are endmills... I always keep two or three or more spares handy, because I get them shipped to me, and even a 24 hour wait can be costly. And don't buy cheap ones either - even quality endmills cost very little over the cheap stuff.

Just looking to keep you on the practical path. I realize this is more of a diversion for you, and I don't know about you, but I absolutely hate buying stuff I don't need and collects dust on a shelf.

[louieatienza]

Are you saying TTS tooling into an ER32 chuck? What a waste of z travel that will be. You are completely missing the point of TTS in the first place. TTS is used with an R8 or MT3 spindle and a 3/4 collet so the TTS tool can be quckly changed and seat against the spindle face for repeatable Z height. Your atc idea is nothing new and has been done time and again.

No Ian's point was he didn't realize the amount of force necessary for the ISO20 drawbar. An yes I believe it's less than Tormach, IIRC that requires 2000lb actuator.

[yulolaf]

No Ian's point was he didn't realize the amount of force necessary for the ISO20 drawbar. An yes I believe it's less than Tormach, IIRC that requires 2000lb actuator.

Hi Havno......if you have a selection of shanks with ER 32 chucks like I opted for, you can use TTS type tooling with parallel shanks.

.

This sure sounds like advocating the use of TTS tooling in ER32 chucks.

[asuratman]

And I asked it be made with a standard air cylinder mount dimensions. So user can use air cylinder or electric cylinder freely. I will show it when receiving the sample.

cost is not a deal now. one thing can be sure of is it will be cheaper than air cylinder system. I just hope it works well..lol.. it should be.

After I test it works well, I will make it an option to go with ISO20 and BT30 and R8 QTC spindle.. it will work with all of them. I'm sure it will be a better solution for users than making one with common linear actor on market.

Skyfire,
Do you think you will sell the electric/air power drawbar soon?

[handlewanker]

Are you saying TTS tooling into an ER32 chuck? What a waste of z travel that will be. You are completely missing the point of TTS in the first place. TTS is used with an R8 or MT3 spindle and a 3/4 collet so the TTS tool can be quckly changed and seat against the spindle face for repeatable Z height. Your atc idea is nothing new and has been done time and again.

Yes Yes noob, we all know how TTS works, but when you need to mount tools in a spindle that only has an ER32 chuck on the end, like the basic SVM-0 mill, using any parallel shank tooling is the only way to go.

For instance how would you do drilling with an ER32 chuck spindle?........dismount the collet(s) for each drill size.....you know nothing of machining in that case.

And BTW, the ATC method I mentioned is just an indication of what is possible and has been done by others many times before......in case I forgot to mention that tiny fact.
Ian.

[yulolaf]

Yes Yes noob, we all know how TTS works, but when you need to mount tools in a spindle that only has an ER32 chuck on the end, like the basic SVM-0 mill, using any parallel shank tooling is the only way to go.

For instance how would you do drilling with an ER32 chuck spindle?........dismount the collet(s) for each drill size.....you know nothing of machining in that case.

And BTW, the ATC method I mentioned is just an indication of what is possible and has been done by others many times before......in case I forgot to mention that tiny fact.
Ian.

Noob huh, LOL. I don't think you do. I would use a straight shank drill chuck in the ER32 chuck if you don't like changing out ER collets for drill bits. That would save you Z height vs putting a TTS holder with a drill chuck in the ER. This only makes sense though if your ER32 is permanent. Seems you are planning to use a power drawbar so this must not be the case. If you have iso20 taper ER32 holders then by all means I would get several (at least 6 for your atc,lol) and load them beforehand with whatever tooling is needed to perform the job. As Z height is a premiuim with such a little machine, drill bits loaded directly into the ER is the logical way to go.

[handlewanker]

No Ian's point was he didn't realize the amount of force necessary for the ISO20 drawbar. An yes I believe it's less than Tormach, IIRC that requires 2000lb actuator.

Wow......a ton of force to push the draw bar down harder to allow it to compress the Bellville washers so that the tool can be released........there has to be a better way.

I'm familiar with the TTS mechanism and am totally not impressed by the fact that, although it is necessary for that design, the draw bar is in a slackening mode when it's required to grip the most........when it is required to release the tool, the draw bar has to have even greater pressure on it to compress the washers.........this is not good engineering, but the only way possible for that design.

All of this has been said before so I won't go on and on about the draw backs of TTS if/when it inadvertently slackens and you get tool draw down for one reason or another.

Just a small example of a simple operation requiring at least 4 tool changes........a plate with 4 tapped holes in the corners........this requires 1- centre drilling to start the drill right......2 - drilling the hole........3 - chamfering the top of the hole......4-.tapping the hole with a spring tapper or whatever.

I see 4 different size collet change overs in that set up........you lose Z positioning in each case.

Even parallel shank change over tooling, like drill chucks, in the ER32 collet spindle will maintain the Z position during change overs......just needs a small collar to butt against the collet face inside the nut.....easy peasy.

My contention is, if you went for the SVM-0 mill with only the basic ER32 spindle for economy.....(it can be changed over as the head being split allows this to happen), then anything to increase the Z axis height would be highly desirable.

Of course, with CNC you'd do all the operations collectively before changing to the next tool, as long as it was on the same work piece, but with a bit of repetition, when you change over work pieces you start form tool no1 again and can lose Z position without a datum point for each tool..........this is not a problem with the ISO 20 tool set up or any other taper or parallel shank tool set up, a point of which I'm very well aware.

Maintaining the Z position with tool changes is not possible when you only have the ER 32 spindle.

This is one reason why I advocated for the extended linear rails for the Z axis on the SVM-0 to allow for longer tooling change overs like drills in drill chucks etc etc etc.......blue in the face...... etc....LOL.

The SVM-0 is a small mill, but a powerful piece of highly accurate precision equipment for whatever you want it for, so you have to go with the flow to maximise it's potential......think ISO20.......think QTC....think possible ATC....think versatility......whatever......you can't have too much tooling....ever, Louie.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

BTW.......I think it would be possible to have a TTS capability with the SVM-0 mill equipped with the iSO 20 spindle if the ISO 20 spindle had a single split ISO 20 collet in place of the ISO tool, attached to the draw bar end similar to the original TTS design with R8 collet......a lot would depend on the body diam of the ISO 20 tooling.

Defeng will have a seizure if I suggested this as a further option, but as it only entailed having a split ISO 20 collet and custom draw bar.....it would be simple to achieve.....what could you call it.....the SVMTS method.........parallel shank tooling is freely available and cheap........just a passing thought on increasing the versatility of the SVM-0
Ian.

[yulolaf]

[QUOTE=handlewanker;1683594]
Just a small example of a simple operation requiring at least 4 tool changes........a plate with 4 tapped holes in the corners........this requires 1- centre drilling to start the drill right......2 - drilling the hole........3 - chamfering the top of the hole......4-.tapping the hole with a spring tapper or whatever.

I see 4 different size collet change overs in that set up........you lose Z positioning in each case.

QUOTE]

Here's a little tip for you, those of us with decades of machining and CNC experience will point out to you that the first tool you use to spot drill would go deep enough so that it also creates the chamfer for the drilled hole and therefor no need for the 3rd operation, fyi.