[fizzissist]

The Hadley cells do block interhemispheric circulation, but there is some mixing between the Hadley, Ferrel, and Polar cells...except in the case of CFCs released at ground level in the U.S.

Those go directly to the Ozone Hole.

But you do bring up an interesting point that I've seen discussed...we have the Hawaiian CO2 monitoring, but nothing equivalent (that I'm aware of) in the southern hemisphere.

[Geof]

.......there is some mixing.....


But you do bring up an interesting point that I've seen discussed...we have the Hawaiian CO2 monitoring, but nothing equivalent (that I'm aware of) in the southern hemisphere.

On a long enough time scale there is total mixing, and once there is total mixing you cannot identify what originated where. Identifying haze in the southern hemisphere with a source in the northern is ridiculous.

Regarding the CO2 monitoring I think it is only done in Hawaii, up on top of the big momma (I forget the name). And I think it is assumed that the measured levels represent typical worldwide atmospheric levels with the further assumption that the annual variation is due to plant growth in the northern hemisphere which has a greater proportion of land are.

It all sound very logical, superficially at least.

However, IMNHO, implicit in this is the conclusion that full atmospheric mixing, hemisphere to hemisphere, occurs on a time scale of less than a few months; it has to if seasonal variations are being observed. Which I think is nonsense.

[dufas]

Take the example of the non white gentleman from Alabama in the stringy vest, sitting on the rickety porch of a run down shack, being offered a mortgage to buy the place and so put him into that rare breed of home owner status while being unemployed in an area of low employment opportunities.

What kind of morons are you breeding in the New World?

In OZ, one of the first things that apply is if the property is worth the money being borrowed, even if the new wannabe owner is of millionaire status, and even if the new wannabe owner is prepared to pay whatever for the property.

It seem some people across the pond should be directly accountable for the Fanny/Freddy balls up, or are the kick backs masking the banking activities so much?

I remember when in the 50's it was 1/3rd deposit and 1 year to pay on any retail hire purchase borrowing.
Gradually from retail pressure it went to 10% down and three years to pay, and you had to get a written letter from Mom and Dad to open a post office savings book.

It would seem that the housing market is driven by the estate agents as the prime cause of overinflating house values and then the banks being prepared to pay out on their expertise.

What does it profit a nation when the homeowners partly own the tangible assets and the banks own the wannabe homeowners.

That is complete crowd control, just .1% in mortgage interest rate rise is enought to cause foreclosure and eviction.

The other damming scene is the rise of squalid low class housing neighbourhoods that tend to concentrate low wage earning low moral character people that normally would be spread around in rented accomodation and kept in check by peer pressure.

I know you find this uncomfortable to think about but how yo'all gonna feed yo fool selves when your population expands and the job market continues to shrink?

I bet the universities are still churning out the graduates, so over educated in obsolete consumer manufacturing techniques, when it's peasant farmer capabilities yo'all gonna need to survive the coming winds of change.
Ian.

It seems that handlewanker can't take care of his own backyard....Well, he does want to get rid of those he could care less about.....

http://www.architecture.com.au/i-cms?page=10220

[martinw]

However, IMNHO, implicit in this is the conclusion that full atmospheric mixing, hemisphere to hemisphere, occurs on a time scale of less than a few months; it has to if seasonal variations are being observed. Which I think is nonsense.

Dear Geof,

I went to Mt. St. Helens three weeks ago and saw a video at the visitor centre. OK, OK, it is not the most reliable source for this post, but they did mention that the ash cloud from the volcanic blast took a few weeks to circle the globe.


If that is true, my guess is that CO2 is going to be a far faster tourist.

(BTW, Mauna Loa)

Best wishes,

Martin

[Geof]

..... they did mention that the ash cloud from the volcanic blast took a few weeks to circle the globe...Martin

Yes in roughly the same latitude as the volcano, and it circulates as a discrete 'lump'; how long does it take to disperse over the entire atmosphere? With ash or SO2 from volcanoes the question is somewhat academic because it settles rapidly or is washed out, but for a gas what is the pole to pole mixing time?

[NinerSevenTango]

On a long enough time scale there is total mixing, and once there is total mixing you cannot identify what originated where. Identifying haze in the southern hemisphere with a source in the northern is ridiculous.

Regarding the CO2 monitoring I think it is only done in Hawaii, up on top of the big momma (I forget the name). And I think it is assumed that the measured levels represent typical worldwide atmospheric levels with the further assumption that the annual variation is due to plant growth in the northern hemisphere which has a greater proportion of land are.

It all sound very logical, superficially at least.

However, IMNHO, implicit in this is the conclusion that full atmospheric mixing, hemisphere to hemisphere, occurs on a time scale of less than a few months; it has to if seasonal variations are being observed. Which I think is nonsense.

I predict that these eminent scientists will come to a perfectly logical and supportable conclusion that everyone can get behind: millions upon millions of dollars must be spent to study this new problem and all its ramifications, so that millions more can be spent on coming up with solutions to the problem. They might even have to build a new wing at a university and introduce a new subject into the curriculum.

--97T--

[handlewanker]

One of many, they don't call OZ "The lucky Country" for nothing sport, whereas they don't call yo'all "The Ugly Americans" also for nothing.

The problem is when yo'all start to "act" like a self appointed boy scout leader you have to actually be one, squeeky clean, know what I mean?

We the general "other lot" get pissed off at the capers "You Lot" get up to when you try to be world leaders, but with your MAD policy, we are very wary indeed of the capers you do indulge in.

The fact is old sport, anything anyone does invariably impacts on anyone and everyone to a lesser or greater degree, but when you become too big for your boots, and the boots are old and worn out, then "We" the other lot get a bit worried at what capers "You Lot" are going to try next.

It has been said, and very truly too, that desperate times call for desperate measures, and desperate men will always resort to them when the time comes.

I just hope that "Your" desperate measures don't impact on the fragile economy of the world anymore than it already has, and that is a track record no one can be proud to write home to mom and dad about.

I can only attribute your obtuse machinations to the combined mental processes that come into play when the "Huddled Masses" put their heads together.

Isn't it ironic how history levels the humps and bumps that seem to arise with monotonous regularity as the effluent of a wind pain finaly discharges amid a mighty roaring noise, so nations come and go, also amid a mighty roaring noise.

The Communists came to power and thrashed about on the world stage for 70 years finally to wither and die like a candle at the bottom of the dish, while at the same time the US of A, became a force to be reckoned with in 1938 with the start of WW2, now scarcely 60 years later the State of the Union is appearing to be The State of Bancruptcy, who said Communism was inferior to Capitalism, they beat you by 10 years before finally going extinct.

Most of the Humanoid activity is directed at attempting to get more out of the pint pot than it contains, which is called "efficiency", but in reality as nature intended, you have to cast your bread (lots of it) to the waters to catch just one fish.

Nature did not intend Efficiency to be part of the equation, so when someone states that a wind generator, photo voltaic cell or any other device is inefficient because it produces so little energy for the effort, think of Nature and be humble, even a candle is high tech to a stone age cave man.

You're going to need lots of alternate energy measures in the coming climate changes, less for mobility and more for survival, but yo'all know all about that.

Ian.

[martinw]

With ash or SO2 from volcanoes the question is somewhat academic because it settles rapidly or is washed out, but for a gas what is the pole to pole mixing time?

Dear Geof,

Here are things that might drive global CO2 atmospheric mixing...

1) Brownian motion and "the jolly old random walk".

2) The very low concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere encouraging (1) above.

3) High altitude jetstream winds stirring up the soup. They drive a bit of low level weather.

4) For good measure, let's add a few hurricanes.

For what it is worth, my guess is that (1) above is the biggest driver.

All this is guesswork.. but I think that a blob of CO2 is going to beat Mt. St. Helen's smoke when it comes to the "round the world dash".

Best wishes,

Martin

[Geof]

Dear Geof,

Here are things that might drive global CO2 atmospheric mixing...

1) Brownian motion and "the jolly old random walk"..... "round the world dash".

I agree, if there was no bulk circulation then it would be a case of simple diffusion which is random walk along the mean free path for the molecules involved at an average speed which depends on temperature. It would be possible to calculate an upper limit for atmospheric mixing by diffusion only.

Bulk circulation is much more rapid but because the globe spins bulk circulation tends to loop around within latitudinal bands; this is more or less what gives us the trade winds and the doldrums. North south transport is less effective.

Actually it just popped into my mind that Nevil Shute had some idea of what I am getting at; do you remember 'On The Beach'? He placed it in the southern hemisphere and they had many, many more months to wait for the inevitable.

[handlewanker]

97T, now your'e talking turkey, I mean the honest truth type of turkey.

That will guarantee more life time career jobs for the boys.

We need more eminent ones, the other eminent ones aren't eminent enough.

In the end you'll have too many chiefs and not enough indians, but that's life, who cares if they're excess to requirements as long as they're eminent.

With all the papers they're going to submit you'll be able to paper over the cracks in your tinpot philosophies.....LOL.

Please note:- The term "You and Your" are a referal to the great unwashed et al, as opposed to anyone in particular, I thought you might like to know that.
Ian.

[martinw]

Actually it just popped into my mind that Nevil Shute had some idea of what I am getting at; do you remember 'On The Beach'? He placed it in the southern hemisphere and they had many, many more months to wait for the inevitable.

Dear Geof,

Yes! But what ultimately did for Australia in "On the Beach" was a cloud of radioactive ash from the Northern hemisphere. It was not a tracer gas like CO2. BTW, is it still legal to refer to CO2 as a tracer without the threat of rendition to various dodgy states?

Best wishes,
Martin

[fizzissist]

Monthly Mauna Lows...uh...

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...-july_2008.png

The wide swings on a 12 month cycle fascinate me, because it shows that there's a substantial lag in north/south mixing, which is why I'd like to see an equivalent data gathering system in the southern realm.

(the slight downward doesn't surprise me, and in itself doesn't prove there a) isn't more gross CO2 or b) there isn't less gross CO2 )

edit:....this just in....Just heard that there IS a site at Cape Grim, Tasmania....will post what I find if anyone is interested.

[fizzissist]

Ignore me, I'll go away.

http://www.environment.gov.au/soe/20...dioxide_dl.xls

...now, if I could just get an overlay with the Mauna Loa data...

http://www.urbanecology.org.au/topic...umulation.html

[Geof]

Dear Geof,...

Yes! But what ultimately did for Australia in "On the Beach" was a cloud of radioactive ash from the Northern hemisphere. It was not a tracer gas like CO2....Martin

Okay, maybe Nevil Shute didn't have it; ash wouldn't get there I think, unless it was really tiny ash.

[One of Many]

One of many, they don't call OZ "The lucky Country" for nothing sport, whereas they don't call yo'all "The Ugly Americans" also for nothing.

The problem is when yo'all start to "act" like a self appointed boy scout leader you have to actually be one, squeeky clean, know what I mean?

We the general "other lot" get pissed off at the capers "You Lot" get up to when you try to be world leaders, but with your MAD policy, we are very wary indeed of the capers you do indulge in.

The fact is old sport, anything anyone does invariably impacts on anyone and everyone to a lesser or greater degree, but when you become too big for your boots, and the boots are old and worn out, then "We" the other lot get a bit worried at what capers "You Lot" are going to try next.

It has been said, and very truly too, that desperate times call for desperate measures, and desperate men will always resort to them when the time comes.

I just hope that "Your" desperate measures don't impact on the fragile economy of the world anymore than it already has, and that is a track record no one can be proud to write home to mom and dad about.

I can only attribute your obtuse machinations to the combined mental processes that come into play when the "Huddled Masses" put their heads together.

Isn't it ironic how history levels the humps and bumps that seem to arise with monotonous regularity as the effluent of a wind pain finaly discharges amid a mighty roaring noise, so nations come and go, also amid a mighty roaring noise.

The Communists came to power and thrashed about on the world stage for 70 years finally to wither and die like a candle at the bottom of the dish, while at the same time the US of A, became a force to be reckoned with in 1938 with the start of WW2, now scarcely 60 years later the State of the Union is appearing to be The State of Bancruptcy, who said Communism was inferior to Capitalism, they beat you by 10 years before finally going extinct.

Most of the Humanoid activity is directed at attempting to get more out of the pint pot than it contains, which is called "efficiency", but in reality as nature intended, you have to cast your bread (lots of it) to the waters to catch just one fish.

Nature did not intend Efficiency to be part of the equation, so when someone states that a wind generator, photo voltaic cell or any other device is inefficient because it produces so little energy for the effort, think of Nature and be humble, even a candle is high tech to a stone age cave man.

You're going to need lots of alternate energy measures in the coming climate changes, less for mobility and more for survival, but yo'all know all about that.

Ian.

Wanker sport,

I was born in 1960. I didn't make this country what it is, I didn't break it nor do I have the power to fix what bugs you or the world at hand has painted the picture by. I was born into it and must live within my means like most people here. So putting the financial crumblings on me and my lot gains you what? Crispy fresh Girl Scout cookies? So what!

You are pissing and *****'n on the wrong tree. I go to work and take care of my family needs just like you did in your previous humanoid existence. Lonely retired old men can get so petty about things they no longer have control over, but looking for someone to pin all the worlds problems on is part of the game? Are you independently wealthy, a ward of the state or some Union pensioner bleeding the new generation of their wealth? We all have a stake in what is happening, but I am as helpless as you are in that regard. It is a mighty hard fall from a high horse you have there, little man.

Getting your ire up yourself, the "You", "Your", "Yo'all", "Your lot" doesn't make Oz a lucky country to have you as part of its ugly gypsy citizenry either. Unlike some, I don't run from one continent to another looking for a Utopia to plant my leeching ass in and call it home. I take it this here castigating hobby of yours is the only thing you can contribute to society these days? How noble you show the least respect for your fellow man across the pond that have no intention to create harm by living a pretty simple life in an ugly world gone mad with folk like yourself. If the stone age technology works for you then have at it. If you wish to pay a ton more for high tech, low efficiency, high dollar, guilt reducing gadgetry, then have at it, although I doubt you can afford it either.

Take a Midol, would ya! Geezzz!

DC

[skippy]

As I've stated on previous occasions, I believe that GW is happening and that we must attempt to find solutions and change our "unsustainable way of life". This is just my opinion and I know I don't have a hope in hell of convincing any of you lot that I'm right (not that I profess to be either) nor do you have a hope in hell of convincing me that you're right. For that reason I find this thread to be rather useless and all it has managed to achieve is to degenerate to this latest slinging match.

Like it or not, a very large proportion of the world thinks that the USA has a lot to answer for with regards to world politics, wars, etc. I say this knowing the general opinion of my fellow Australians and also the general opinion here in Western Europe. However, show me the clean and perfect nation? There isn’t one! They’re all into it and they all have their snouts in the trough gorging themselves stupid. This isn’t the place for this type of excrement. Remember why we are here at cnczone. Like One of Many sort of said (slightly changed): I go to work and take care of my family needs just like you do so don’t look for someone to pin all the world’s problems on.

As I state above, I believe we have to change our unsustainable way of life BUT: I crossed Spain on the way back from holidays 10 days ago and was surprised to see field after field (hundreds) of solar panel arrays which weren’t there 2 years ago. Each field with say 60 units each measuring say 12m x 6m. Good thing I suppose although for one reason or another I’m not a big supporter of photovoltaic power on a large scale. I’ve since found out that there is a huge subsidy for the actual physical installation and as well as that the government is paying 44c (€) per Kw for the electricity generated which is 10 times the average price the electricity company charges (€0.04). On one side we could say well if this is what’s needed to stimulate alternative energy sources then good. On the other side of things, we have a whole new market with lots of people marking huge amounts of money (component importers, frame and mechanism constructors, installers, field owners who rent out the field,) and then the investors who probably couldn’t give a rat’s aarse about the planet but get paid 10 times the going rate. Question is: Who pays for all this? Good or bad, I don’t know. One could also say that those with the money (investors) get to reap an artificially high benefit which will ultimately be paid for by the average householder via raised electricity tariffs. That’s not to criticise Spain either as I know Australia has a similar program as do many other countries. I wonder if the peak period of electricity produced by solar energy happens to match peak demand period? I doubt it. Carbon credits are another grey (read: shadey) area for me.

97T, regarding the housing crisis we’ll wait to see what happens here in Spain. Quick summary of the rising market syndrome here in Spain: ~41 million people here, plus a huge immigrant population of which many are illegal. 5 years ago there were almost 3 million dwellings empty and the rate of building here is, or at least was until a few months ago more than UK, France and Germany combined where there are about 190 million people. So how was the game played? (A) Person A has some money stashed away so they buy an apartment off the plan at X€ then sell it a year later when it’s ready to live in at X€ + 40%. Thing is that the deeds only get done when the dwelling is actually habitable and therefore never get to go in person A’s name so they get to pocket the +40% without having to pay tax on the earnings. Then they do it again and again.
(B) Person B already has a dwelling where they live but wants to get in on the housing thing so they buy the above dwelling. The bank loans them 100% of the value of the dwelling using the first dwelling as collateral. There’s no need to rent the place out (renting’s a risky business here) because they know that next year this place will be worth at least 20% more than this year.
(C) Couple C are young and only have €3,000 saved. Well in fact they didn’t save it as it was given to them by their parents. They buy a dwelling worth €150,000. Taxes to buy it are say another €22,000 = €172,000 total minus €3,000 deposit = a loan for €169,000 on a place worth €150,000
Now two years later the “real estate prices will never go down” economy suddenly finds that yes prices can go down and in fact one of couple C loses their job due to the downturn in the economy and they are forced to sell their dwelling. Now the dwelling is worth €130,000 but even at that price they can’t find anyone to buy it and their mortgage is for €169,000.
Yes, everything’s wonderful in a rising market. You can’t put a foot wrong. Then one day reality strikes home and everyone realises that you can’t have 4 million empty dwellings and keep building at a rate higher than several other countries put together.

p.s. The other day I saw a post here by a Chinese guy trying to hussle up work as a middleman and I was particularly apalled when he was attacked in what for me was a racist manner. Ashamedly for me, the person that launched the attack happened to be Australian. Fancy blaming a Chinese individual for the woes/effects of Chinese imports in our countries.

[johyn]

seems Uncle Al has benefited most from this climate scam. as I write I can hear the wind blowing outside from Fay! My theory is it started from all his hot air from flying around and talking about how he lost the election...
Let's just enjoy using our minds to create!

[NinerSevenTango]

As I've stated on previous occasions, I believe that GW is happening and that we must attempt to find solutions and change our "unsustainable way of life". This is just my opinion and I know I don't have a hope in hell of convincing any of you lot that I'm right (not that I profess to be either) nor do you have a hope in hell of convincing me that you're right. For that reason I find this thread to be rather useless and all it has managed to achieve is to degenerate to this latest slinging match.

Well the good news is that the latest evidence and the most plausible theories seem to indicate that we are now in a cooling phase. The scientific community is beginning to notice (they have to, because their thermometers and the satellite pictures of the ice caps say so). So you can breathe a sigh of relief at that. Unfortunately, there are some other, much more ominous threats to worry about.

Like it or not, a very large proportion of the world thinks that the USA has a lot to answer for with regards to world politics, wars, etc. I say this knowing the general opinion of my fellow Australians and also the general opinion here in Western Europe. However, show me the clean and perfect nation? There isn’t one! They’re all into it and they all have their snouts in the trough gorging themselves stupid. This isn’t the place for this type of excrement.

The foreign policy of the U.S. has not represented the interests of the people on the ground for over 100 years. The more power an elite group has, the more dangerous it is for civilians anywhere within their reach. The elites actually come to believe that wielding that power gives them moral authority. Most people everywhere in the world believe in palpably ridiculous notions, most of it fed to them by the press and the power elite. It's no different in the U.S. That said, whoever lives the best lifestyle will be the target of envy from everywhere else. Like you mention below, it's ugly, and your example illustrates that it can be directed at anyone. If the U.S. goes in the tank economically while others prosper, the growing nations will be the new targets.

Remember why we are here at cnczone. Like One of Many sort of said (slightly changed): I go to work and take care of my family needs just like you do so don’t look for someone to pin all the world’s problems on.

As I state above, I believe we have to change our unsustainable way of life

But there's a contradiction there. What will you tell your wife and kids when you can't provide for them after you have damned their way of life, giving moral support to those who believe you should serve society (meaning THEM) above the interests of your own family? I believe that the amount of your access to energy demonstrably equals your standard of living. My activities serve to raise the standard of living of everybody, and I don't feel guilty for it. And I don't believe it's unsustainable, either. If we don't sustain it, people are going to suffer horribly. If we change our unsustainable way of life, most machinists would be out of jobs, and it would probably be illegal to have hobby machine shops even if you could get metal and there was still a use for what you make.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not talking about conservation and refraining from fouling the environment on a personal level. What I'm talking about are the efforts of those who seek to impose restrictions on the productive sectors of the world economy. They are using palpable lies to feed the envy (producers use more resources than they deserve, get more money than they deserve, and foul the environment for the rest of us) in order to gain the power of the gun over those who produce. It's the oldest game in history. If they can enslave us and live off our efforts by making us feel guilty, they won't have to use the whip and gun so much.

BUT: I crossed Spain on the way back from holidays 10 days ago and was surprised to see field after field (hundreds) of solar panel arrays which weren’t there 2 years ago. <snip>

It's good that you see the paradoxes, and the flow of money to people who care not about the truth through the use of the government gun. Who pays for it are the producers and consumers. Who suffers most for it are the poorest people, for whom the price of basic energy needs gets pushed out of reach. It's instructive to see what kind of businessman profits under deals like this.

97T, regarding the housing crisis we’ll wait to see what happens here in Spain. Quick summary of the rising market syndrome here in Spain: ~41 million people here, plus a huge immigrant population of which many are illegal. 5 years ago there were almost 3 million dwellings empty and the rate of building here is, or at least was until a few months ago more than UK, France and Germany combined where there are about 190 million people. So how was the game played? (A) Person A has some money stashed away so they buy an apartment off the plan at X€ then sell it a year later when it’s ready to live in at X€ + 40%. Thing is that the deeds only get done when the dwelling is actually habitable and therefore never get to go in person A’s name so they get to pocket the +40% without having to pay tax on the earnings. Then they do it again and again.
(B) Person B already has a dwelling where they live but wants to get in on the housing thing so they buy the above dwelling. The bank loans them 100% of the value of the dwelling using the first dwelling as collateral. There’s no need to rent the place out (renting’s a risky business here) because they know that next year this place will be worth at least 20% more than this year.
(C) Couple C are young and only have €3,000 saved. Well in fact they didn’t save it as it was given to them by their parents. They buy a dwelling worth €150,000. Taxes to buy it are say another €22,000 = €172,000 total minus €3,000 deposit = a loan for €169,000 on a place worth €150,000
Now two years later the “real estate prices will never go down” economy suddenly finds that yes prices can go down and in fact one of couple C loses their job due to the downturn in the economy and they are forced to sell their dwelling. Now the dwelling is worth €130,000 but even at that price they can’t find anyone to buy it and their mortgage is for €169,000.
Yes, everything’s wonderful in a rising market. You can’t put a foot wrong. Then one day reality strikes home and everyone realises that you can’t have 4 million empty dwellings and keep building at a rate higher than several other countries put together.

The evil of inflation is practiced worldwide, and it always benefits some at the expense of others. On the day when every man in the street can tell you that something is going to go up in price faster than the pace of money creation forever, that is a good day to sell, because when it comes down, it will make a big noise. The average investor gets whipsawed out of their savings, and those who created money out of nothing (like counterfeiters) will be bailed out. And those who just save their money get cheated out of theirs, too.

Edit: And another fascinating aspect of this is that everyone is supposed to think that this constantly zooming upwards of the cost of housing (or any other thing) is a Good Thing, while when it comes down, it's a Bad Thing. It's a Good Thing to the money-printers, because they are signing people up for outlandish mountains of debt, to which they will be chained for half a lifetime. But it's not so good for people starting out, is it? And when the price comes down, that's making a basic necessity of life more affordable, isn't it? Isn't it really a good thing when the average person actually has half a chance at actually owning their own home without debt? The view from the popular press and pundits is like Alice's looking glass. The tax policy machinations and permutations are interesting, too. There's always something special in there for somebody, isn't there?

p.s. The other day I saw a post here by a Chinese guy trying to hussle up work as a middleman and I was particularly apalled when he was attacked in what for me was a racist manner. Ashamedly for me, the person that launched the attack happened to be Australian. Fancy blaming a Chinese individual for the woes/effects of Chinese imports in our countries.

I saw that thread, and the piling-on. It's as if people who want to win business by working for less money are somehow immoral, even though people routinely shop for things on the basis of price. The ideology that drives the arguments in that thread is very seductive, but when put into practice, the arguments are ugly.

Edit: Perhaps Holden should be prevented from building GTO's for the American market. And perhaps they should be prevented from using American machinery and technology to build them with. (No.)

I think what most people miss is that in the developed world we have governmental structures that through taxes, inflation, and reams of counterproductive regulation regularly skim off or otherwise cost us well over half of what we produce. That renders us unable to compete. Poor people scrabbling for a living in some far-off land should not be an economic threat to me. I live in an area where I can get any of the materials to make a special machine within a day. I can buy any special bolt, be it of stainless, brass, plastic, or steel, just down the street, inexpensively, and have it installed this afternoon. I can get a skilled machinist to make something special out of an exotic alloy, have it ground to exacting dimensions, and even have it ceramic coated within a few days if I have to. These efficiencies make it extremely difficult for anyone that lives in a remote, virtual wasteland to compete. It allows people here to do the work of ten or twenty people (maybe more) who don't enjoy these advantages.

The problem is that our welfare nanny-states have become monsters, taking all of this productivity for granted, and through inflation, eating up all of that advantage and all future increases in productivity even before they are realized. And now, they have made things so bad that the engine of those increases in productivity - the manufacturing sector - has been decimated as production moves offshore. And the result of that is that those remote places build up their capability to produce, closing the gap on our productivity advantage. But the state that feeds off us doesn't scale back, it turns up the heat. Those future increases in productivity aren't going to be coming. So even if the state only keeps taxing and printing money and spending it on itself at the same rate (never gonna happen), the effects of inflation on deadening the economy are going to be multiplied.

And as things get worse, the envy factor will kick in. Politicians love to play on envy and incite class warfare. In worsening times, they will resort to actual warfare to keep everyone's eye off the fact that it was those elites that impoverished them in the first place. And that means danger for everyone. Everywhere.

--97T--

[NinerSevenTango]

This year's weather is the coolest in five years, scientists say. But it's not really cooling. It's warming, disguised.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200808...c-1202b49.html

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Never mind that the solar cycle theory predicted this. Pay no heed to those thermometers! They say it's warming, the warming is caused by us, the warming is bad for The Earth, and we need to stop causing it (by living), or at least we need to cut back through punitive taxes (huge transfer of wealth to the nonproductive parasites) NOW, before it's too late! How dare you feed your family when you know you are destroying The World? Who are you, to question Eminent Scientists? Put your head down, get in line, shut up, and do what you are told.

[skippy]

Hey 97T, the economic bit I agree with you and the ecologic bit, well I agree to disagree with you HOWEVER one part of your post really hit a nerve with me. I truly didn't know whether to laugh or to cry when you said: "I live in an area where I can get any of the materials to make a special machine within a day. I can buy any special bolt, be it of stainless, brass, plastic, or steel, just down the street, inexpensively, and have it installed this afternoon. I can get a skilled machinist to make something special out of an exotic alloy, have it ground to exacting dimensions, and even have it ceramic coated within a few days if I have to. These efficiencies make it extremely difficult for anyone that lives in a remote, virtual wasteland to compete. It allows people here to do the work of ten or twenty people (maybe more) who don't enjoy these advantages." By your definintion I don't live in the "developed world". I'd be more than happy just to be able to buy the special bolt and forget about the machinist, special alloy, grinding and the ceramic coatings! Regardless of what I may or may not think about American politics, I'd move there tomorrow if I could just for the very reasons you state in these couple of lines. No criticism meant on what you wrote so I hope you take this the way it's meant to be.