[handlewanker]

If the truth be known, our whole life is bound on models.

Models are created to give a guideline in the next step based upon the results of the last step, and get tailored to suit the occasion.

This is called conditioning.

It goes like this, you, being in a position of power, line all your subjects up and subject them all to a vicious beating using a stick or just a rolled up newspaper.

After the "treatment", you announce that this is just a test to promote the awareness as to whether or not the group is able to accept the terms of their future employment, IE, soldiers going into battle for the first time, and expecting to be horribly maimed.

Those that pay the ultimate price are given a hero's funeral with all the bells and whistles etc, and those that survive are given a pat on the back, a few bits of coloured braid and a shiny tin thing to show they behaved far beyond the expectations of the model, and to encourage others to behave in a like manner, irespective if it is contrary to the rules of the original model.

What has this got to do with global warming, oops, climate change? I don't really know, I'm only following the model guidelines, and if'n it says the carbon footprint gotta be cleaned up, well then according to the model, the dirt just gotta be sequested, prevented or just plain side stepped as in alternative technology, IE going green.

Other than that if'n I was living on a remote island and didn't know anything about Carbon problems, I'd be spending my entire life cooking over an open fire and never worrying if'n the climate was being a bit iffy due to my burning drift wood etc.

The fact that the climate was a bit iffy from time to time, I'd be assuming was due to some trancendental entity not being placated by my placing offerings from my hard earned foodstocks on a rock in the sun while chanting unintelligable verses I'd dreamed up while high on the smoke from some exotic grass I found on the other side of the island.

All of this is quite natural, and the offerings that deplete my meagre food stocks are also quite acceptable, provided I think they do placate the one who makes the climate change from time to time.

One other thing, anyone else on the island who isn't in total agreement with the placating bit will either be required to contribute a bit more to the offerings pile, or end up on the pile as the ultimate offering, you have been warned, the weather has been a bit iffy more often than not lately, so the more offerings we get will mean more placation achieved, trust me it works, I wouldn't lie to you, I've made a lifetime study of the phenomenananana....... whatever.
Ian.

[dufas]

Using the remote island scenario, man IS responsible for the weather.

Throw someone into a fiery pit to appease the gods and secure good weather. Do a rain dance to promote crop growth. Etc, etc.

Maybe we can sacrifice Al Gore to his climate God and save a lot of time and trouble...

[dhellew2]

It is said that money isn't the root of all evil but rather the love of money is the root of all evil. That said, Gore must certainly have more love for money than most of mankind. Nowhere in history has one man been able to dupe so many, Gore is a con man without conscience.

Can’t totally blame Gore for his success, much of the blame lies with the masses. Take the editor of COSTO magazine (a mega business located in the Obamabelt of Western Washington State) who recently GAVE Gore the exclusive cover and cover article about Gore’s book in their magazine because Glenn Beck had PAID for a full page ad about his book (Arguing with Idiots). The editor said Gore was more credible because he had the Nobel Peace Prize and title of vice president of the United States on his resume.

I sent an email to Mr Fuller saying: the whole world knows Gore is the biggest hypocrite that ever lived, that based on his analogy Hitler had credibility because he too rose to a position of leadership and that I questioned the credibility of an award from a socialist organization that promotes one world government. He of course did not reply and I am not surprised.

What I don’t understand is why a business who’s survival depends on a free state so viciously supports Obamanism, the very same Obamagod that wants to distribute their wealth. Seems they are smart enough to create a business but not smart enough to want to keep it.

In the end it is always about the money. After all, Obama put his wealth into non-taxable securities.

Dale

[fizzissist]

The AlGore/Costco issue is bigger than you might think....
Look at the discussion going on in the comment section over at Anthony Watt's blog...

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/2...k-in-new-book/

One contact for non-members is:
Membership / Marketing
Stephanie Bradley
Phone: (425) 313-2926
Email: [email protected]

If you have a Costco membership, just go to the customer service link on their homepage. They'll send you back a boilerplate response. Stephanie will respond personally.

Pimping AlGore on the cover is one thing, but contained in the magazine is a push for you to buy his book, which is chock full of the very same errors contained in An Inconvenient Truth.

Halloween is over, and we're grown-ups. We don't need faked scare tactics.

[handlewanker]

Wow, big can o' worms that Costco thing, whatever Costco is, (we'all don't have Costco over here, maybe by some other name), also we don't have Walmart, and anyone who advocates Walmart as an alternative for Costco, whatever....gotta have a preference to piles instead of AIDS.

I watched a geographic/science program on the TV the other night and it appears the glaciers in the Himalayas at the top end of the mountains where the Ganges originates from, are melting to such an extent that they reckon the Ganges, India's holy water source and dead body dumping ground, will soon dry up.

I don't know if'n this ties in with 'ol Gores Inconvenient expose, but if'n this is a trend elsewhere, yo'all better take note, it was one of yo' boys that blew the whistle, very loud and clear, and even if'n yo' don't agree with the blokes $100 million dollar rake in from it, it might at least have some element of truth in it.

With all the blogs and heated replies to them, too many people are ignoring the fact that the essentials of life are being overlooked, such as clean water for all, so simple, but when you can just turn a tap on and get it, there just doesn't seem a problem anymore, for you or I that is, but try telling that to an African, Indian or Outback black person who has to find water in a hole in the ground that has been drunk from by all animals in the region, and you'll get some idea of what a drink of water can cost you.

Down in the Lucky Country we're headed for another hot summer according to the weather specialists, so I just put my money where my mouth is and paid out $850 for a 5000 litre water tank, and that is doing something positive by any account.

It doesn't matter if Al Gore is even slightly over emphasizing the obvious, IE climate change that has been changing for the last couple a' billion years or so, when it happens very inconveniently, everyone suffers.
Ian.

[gadman58]

Saw Gore on Good Morning America this morning (do watch sometimes to see what doesn't get shown or talked about).

I did not watch the entire interview because the interview seemed contrived and only the questions that made him look good were asked. Except for one Glenn Beck's taunt for Gore to go vegan and stop all the methane from cows.

Gores response (paraphrased) Well although it has been show methane plays a more important roll than first thought, CO2 still is the major problem. I have no plans on turning vegan.

Diane Sawyer mentioned to date he has made over billion on his green business/Carbon Credits.

[dhellew2]

Ian,

Everyone that asks enough questions to seek out the truth has come to the same conclusion as you, the climate will change no matter what man does. As for Gore, the hypocrite, even his new book is a continuation of his con to get more wealth. Look at the photoshop forged photo and you will see the earth as he predicted it would be as a result of global warming even though he now calls it climate change.

Now that our part of the earth (USA) are in a cooling cycle he conveniently changed his cause to Climate Change but he is still preaching global warming. Just because the man has the gift of gab doesn’t give him credibility any more than Hitler or Napolian had.

Did you know that Gore and his wife are donating all the proceeds from his book to an environmental group, his group, yes that’s correct, he is donating the money to himself.

Costco is a wholesale/retail store that started as a supplier of goods for small businesses with the idea of making a profit by selling in volume instead of a large markup. The good news, though pointless, Costco got the message, so much email about their stupid move they shut the email off.

Back to the ever changing climate. History shows that some areas have always had water problems, too much, too little, contaminated by man, animal, and/or nature. Nothing has changed except maybe the place. As one area of the earth gets more water, another gets less. This explains why the sea levels are not rising as Gore still says will happen.

The climate not only changes, it moves. The Sahara desert wasn’t always a waste land.

Now the real problem, knowing that certain areas have water issues, factor in population growth and it becomes very obvious that the water problems are probably more man caused (man made the babies) than weather caused. I remember reading about drought in Africa when I was in grade school back in the late 40’s. The only thing that has changed there is the number of people.

So I say forget Gore, don’t buy his book (that he claims is carbon free) and spend your money on promoting technology, some which are already developed, and solve the water problems and quit worrying about the climate which man cannot change.

Dale

PS I couldn’t help myself but a previous response mentioned the wing-nuts of the world… Washington State sits in the cradle of the mighty Columbia River. Three percent of the water was allocated for irrigation when Grand Coulee Dam was built. To date only a little over half of the reclamation project is completed. Environmentalists have been fighting against finishing the project for years. Meanwhile one of the major aquifers is being depleted for irrigation purposes. The wing-nut solution is to recharge the aquifer (where will they get the water… what about contamination of the ground water?) when all they have to do is finish the irrigation project and let mother nature finish what she does best, recharge the aquifer.

Here’s the rest of that story, due to improvements in irrigation and conservation by farmers, only about 1% of the Columbia river water is currently used for irrigation leaving almost 2% of the original amount for irrigation expansion. Further, some of the 1% water used goes back into the Columbia river. Want to bet the wing-nuts use river water to recharge the aquifer

[phil c]

I watched a geographic/science program on the TV the other night and it appears the glaciers in the Himalayas at the top end of the mountains where the Ganges originates from, are melting to such an extent that they reckon the Ganges, India's holy water source and dead body dumping ground, will soon dry up.

I don't know if'n this ties in with 'ol Gores Inconvenient expose, but if'n this is a trend elsewhere, yo'all better take note, it was one of yo' boys that blew the whistle, very loud and clear, and even if'n yo' don't agree with the blokes $100 million dollar rake in from it, it might at least have some element of truth in it.

It doesn't matter if Al Gore is even slightly over emphasizing the obvious, IE climate change that has been changing for the last couple a' billion years or so, when it happens very inconveniently, everyone suffers.
Ian.

Ian, regarding glaciers, one has to ask, are they retreating because they are melting, or because they are getting less snow? Makes a big difference.

The AGW'ers have switched the moniker to climate change. Climate change is definitely happening, just as it has been for millions of years. The big question is if it is related to anything people are doing, such as burning fossil fuel, or is the climate naturally going through changes with other causes, such as the sun putting out more heat.

Even the majority of the scientists involved with the UN's IPCC wrote that, based on scientific evidence, we don't have enough information to tell. Based on various climate models, which can't predict the vagaries of the last couple hundred years without tuning, we are causing global warming. But the climate models have the same problem ALL empirical models have. They are basically fitting curves to data and are only valid for the range they are based on. There is NO way to know if using them to predict future conditions will be correct.

[OldSneelock]

1951 Born
1957 Built an igloo with my brothers in the snow drifts outside the house
1958 Moved into a house heated by 2 potbellied stoves with my parents and 4 siblings. Froze my "" off huddling around the stove that whole winter.
1959 Learned to iceskate on the pond in the park. It was in November.
1960 My brothers iceskated to school after a 1/2" of freezing rain covered the area.
1962 Skated 6 miles up river to Quincy from Coldwater Michigan. The whole river was frozen to the bottom. Road ice floats down the river in March and went fishing all summer in the skating pond.
1966 Tornado flattened local resort community.
1969 Graduated High School
1973 Huge snowstorm blanketed lower Michigan. Took 3 days to dig out. Spent the time riding snowmobiles and watching TV
1978 Huge snowstorm blanketed lower Michigan. Spent the first day digging out and the 2nd having a great time playing in the snow.
1979 Moved in April to a new house had drifts 4 feet deep in the yard when we moved.
1983 Played golf Christmas Day in 60 degree weather.
1986 Shoveled my parents driveway through 2 feet of snow. Schools shut down.
1990 Uneventfull time just snow and freezing weather all winter until end of April. Moved into a new house in October. Snow on the ground for Halloween.

1991 More snow could get the back door open with the drifts on the porch.
1995 Built a skating pond in the back yard. Still frozen solid in March.
2002 Started hearing about Global Warming. Wondered what the problem would be with not having to shovel 2 feet of snow every winter.
2009 Cold wet summer, early fall, snow October 15th.

Al if you don't hurry up we're going to freeze to death waiting to burn up!

[Jkirk3279]

1983 Played golf Christmas Day in 60 degree weather.

Please note: while I can't confirm or deny any of your other comments, if you indeed live in lower Michigan, I believe it was 1982 that had the Green Christmas.


Christmas 1983 was typical snowy weather. I was disappointed.

As I recall, Christmas Day, 1982 I was on the roof with my Father putting up a TV antenna.

Warm, sunny, with a strong breeze from the south. The Antenna mast slipped and started to fall: my Father reached out, grabbed it and stopped it cold.

[Mariss Freimanis]

Back to "Global Warming" for a moment: I worked from my memories as a kid of 10 to put this together.

Please take a look at this picture; the March 17, 1959 one. It is the USS Skate at the North Pole. Note there is no sea ice on the water at at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Skate_%28SSN-578%29

Now take a look at this picture, the April 10, 2009 one. It is taken almost exactly 50 years later from exactly the same spot as the first picture. Note the buildings atop the ice on the far horizon, the ice is 6m (19 ft) thick.

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np.html

If you believe AWG is real, can you explain these two pictures? Comments please.

Mariss

[gadman58]

Mariss
Why would you look at actual empirical evidence, about the state of climate change. Everyone knows that the ice has all melted and the polar bears have all drowned.

You are only suppose use the GW modeling or look at the messaged data, only then can you truly see the light.

By the way I do not believe there is man made global warming or climate change, which ever you prefer.

I do expect the climate to change as it has for all of earths years since forming into a planet.

Whether it is getting hotter or colder who can say, we just have to watch and see. As we know the models, the GCC proponents worship, and what actually happened in the following years, of weather, do not match.

I do think we should spend more funds on new energy and fuels research instead of climate change by about 1000 fold.

I don't think wind energy will work drove to many times through the Altamont near Livermore Ca. too think that will happen.


Glenn

[Jkirk3279]

Back to "Global Warming" for a moment: I worked from my memories as a kid of 10 to put this together.

Please take a look at this picture; the March 17, 1959 one. It is the USS Skate at the North Pole. Note there is no sea ice on the water at at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Skate_%28SSN-578%29

Now take a look at this picture, the April 10, 2009 one. It is taken almost exactly 50 years later from exactly the same spot as the first picture. Note the buildings atop the ice on the far horizon, the ice is 6m (19 ft) thick.

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np.html

If you believe AWG is real, can you explain these two pictures? Comments please.

Mariss

You're basing this on one narrow-field photograph. A photo that barely shows the length of the submarine.

Not exactly a satellite photo, is it?

The article goes on to mention the sub breaking through thick arctic ice nine times before reaching the Pole.

Maybe they found one narrow clear spot and chose to surface there. There IS ice floatiing next to the sub.

It's not surprising nor odd to consider that open spots in the ice might come and go over the years.

AGW isn't about the temperature of any GIVEN point right this moment. It's the temperature TRENDS over years.

Some places will get warmer. Others will get colder.

[307startup]

So you are proposing that in a body of water covered with ice, there are "pockets" of warm water? Just where exactly does this warm water come from?

The poles are always going to remain cold, even if there is no longer huge fields of ice, due to their angle relative to the sun. It's impossible for them to ever be "warm" unless the earth's poles shifted to the equator, rotating the heavenly body to a new position.

This still doesn't betray human cause as the reason for global temperature fluctuations. At one time Wyoming was both a sea-bed AND a rainforest when dinosaurs roamed the earth. It's anything but tropical now. But I suppose that's because I drive an SUV and have a few head of cows? I could have 3000 head of cattle and they still wouldn't have the ecological impact that a herd of apatosaurs (30-50) would cause.

You're basing this on one narrow-field photograph. A photo that barely shows the length of the submarine.

Not exactly a satellite photo, is it?

The article goes on to mention the sub breaking through thick arctic ice nine times before reaching the Pole.

Maybe they found one narrow clear spot and chose to surface there. There IS ice floatiing next to the sub.

It's not surprising nor odd to consider that open spots in the ice might come and go over the years.

AGW isn't about the temperature of any GIVEN point right this moment. It's the temperature TRENDS over years.

Some places will get warmer. Others will get colder.

[Geof]

So you are proposing that in a body of water covered with ice, there are "pockets" of warm water? Just where exactly does this warm water come from? ...

Here do a bit of reading:

http://www2.fsg.ulaval.ca/giroq/now//what.htm

[307startup]

Thanks Geof, once again you have enlightened me a bit

Here do a bit of reading:

http://www2.fsg.ulaval.ca/giroq/now//what.htm

[fizzissist]

Geof's stuff is easier reading...and appreciated. Didn't know about polynyas.

This explains a lot about ...uh....what we don't understand..
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/200...d-by-currents/

There's also this...sorry it's a bit extensive..How Spitsbergen Heats the World
http://www.arctic-heats-up.com/

[Mariss Freimanis]

Polynyas are well known. They were also used by Soviet nuclear missile submarines during the Cold War as potential ICBM launch locations. After 50 years of supposed "Global Warming" one would expect to see more open water today, not less. The pictures, offered tongue in cheek, seem to indicate not much has changed. I copied the following quote from Lindsen's "Deconstructing Global Warming" presentation:

“THE ARCTIC OCEAN IS WARMING UP, ICEBERGS ARE
GROWING SCARCER AND IN SOME PLACES THE SEALS
ARE FINDING THE WATER TOO HOT. REPORTS ALL
POINT TO A RADICAL CHANGE IN CLIMATE
CONDITIONS AND HITHERTO UNHEARD-OF
TEMPERATURES IN THE ARCTIC ZONE. EXPEDITIONS
REPORT THAT SCARCELY ANY ICE HAS BEEN MET
WITH AS FAR NORTH AS 81 DEGREES 29 MINUTES.
GREAT MASSES OF ICE HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY
MORAINES OF EARTH AND STONES, WHILE AT MANY
POINTS WELL KNOWN GLACIERS HAVE ENTIRELY
DISAPPEARED.”
—US WEATHER BUREAU, 1922

This was in 1922! No mention of drowning polar bears though the plight of boiling seals is noted.:-)

Here is the link to this paper:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...n-talk-pdf.pdf

Mariss

[Mariss Freimanis]

Here's a graph instead of anecdotal photos: This one shows the global mean temperature for the last 5,000 years. Note that the temperature trend has been downward since 500BC. There have been 3 short warm periods since then, the Roman, Medieval and 20th Century that show as "bumps" on the downward trend line. None equal the Minoan warm period (1,400 BC).

1) Each warm period lasts less than 200 years and ours (20th Century warm period) is already 150 years old. Temperatures rose quickly, peaked, then cooled slowly. Note the Medieval warm period.

2) Each warm period is spaced about 1,000 years apart and each is a little cooler than the previous one. Each inter-warm period minimum temperature is colder than the previous one.

3) Each was coincident with a burst of human civilization and creativity. Enjoy this warm period while it lasts.:-)

Mariss

[handlewanker]

Meanwhile, back down in the Lucky Country we gonna have another scorcher of a Summer, well, down South in Melbourne anyway.

Last year, 2008 we had 43 degrees C, hottest on record.

Since 1980 in Winter it peed down every year untill about 1990, then the Winters got dryer and milder, untill around 2000 we started a regular drought.....is this the Global Warming they bin' on about, or just the Climate Change somone else went on about?

Either way, if'n you plan yo' life around the climate, yo' gonna have a hard time coming to terms wid it.

The majority of Western countries have climate levelers to cater for the varience in the weather, like dams and irrigation canals etc, while the Third World areas rely heavily on Monsoon rains etc, and flooding rivers depositing silt on a regular basis.

One of these days the world will have a series of water catchments distributing water as needed, but not in my time.

About 5000 years ago the Egyptians moved a whole city of quite a few square miles, stone by stone, a distance of about 200 miles or so, because the one branch of the Nile they were on silted up and went dry, no problem move the city, and they did.

With all our technology we couldn't do that today, but we can talk about the effects the climate changes are causing, seems talk is cheap, not many are willing to actually do something about it.

The AGW thing is typical of the talk process, it ain't been conclusively proved, but lots of talk has happened in the meantime.

The best that's been thought up is to make someone else richer who can't afford to live like their richer neighbours.

If that was proposed 5000 years ago in the Egyptian times, I bet there would be one less Pharaoh getting a stone box to lie in.
Ian.