[twoartistic]

(b) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is hand-forged, hand-engraved, hand-finished, or hand-polished, or has been otherwise hand-processed, unless the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product.".....

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

Thank you, for finding this, it completely confirms what I have said. Each piece on the video has elements or processes that include manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation. Thereby making that portion of that piece "hand-crafted"

It was mentioned that the gear table was clearly cnc produced and that is true. the profile cuts of the teeth were completely cut with my cnc, and the gear shapes were roughed out using a 3 deg x 1/4"dia. ball nose conical bit @ 0.1 inch raster passes with no finish pass. Why no finish pass? Because, I like to work the final finish by hand, using hand gouges and/or rotary tools. The subtle variations in shape and faceting are what gives the piece the distinctive hand worked quality. I could have saved many hours of work, to run a finishing pass at say 0.03"-0.05" per pass and simply sanded the machining marks out of the wood. Nine full days worth of man hours were spent hand-working the gears to my satisfaction. The piece has a hand oiled finish, I did the finish myself, because I have seen projects ruined at this stage, and we had far too many hours in this piece for me not to take personal responsibility of the finish. In my book, that qualifies as "hand-crafted", since much of "the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation" I have never claimed that all of our work is entirely hand crafted, that would be deceptive, although I have done pieces that are completely hand crafted, including hand cutting the raw materials.

As I have posted before, I am calling our work hand crafted from the aspect of the hand worked elements and process that (as quoted above) permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product. I hope that detailed explanation satisfies any further questions about what I mean by "hand crafted" in our video. I further hope, that given the quality of the work shown, that even the most particular personalities would accept, that when comparing one of our pieces along side say an Ethan Allen, Martin, or any other "fully processed" furniture, door, or cabinet project that the overwhelming opinion would be that ours is hand crafted. If not, then the next time your in my area, I'll rough you out a piece at the above mentioned specs, after 4, to 6 hours per square feet (if your fairly good, since African Teak is harder than my head) of working the shape with hand tools we will see if you still think it is not hand crafted. Hmm, I wonder how much I should charge for that kind of educational opportunity?

[ihavenofish]

Thank you, for finding this, it completely confirms what I have said. Each piece on the video has elements or processes that include manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation. Thereby making that portion of that piece "hand-crafted"

It was mentioned that the gear table was clearly cnc produced and that is true. the profile cuts of the teeth were completely cut with my cnc, and the gear shapes were roughed out using a 3 deg x 1/4"dia. ball nose conical bit @ 0.1 inch raster passes with no finish pass. Why no finish pass? Because, I like to work the final finish by hand, using hand gouges and/or rotary tools. The subtle variations in shape and faceting are what gives the piece the distinctive hand worked quality. I could have saved many hours of work, to run a finishing pass at say 0.03"-0.05" per pass and simply sanded the machining marks out of the wood. Nine full days worth of man hours were spent hand-working the gears to my satisfaction. The piece has a hand oiled finish, I did the finish myself, because I have seen projects ruined at this stage, and we had far too many hours in this piece for me not to take personal responsibility of the finish. In my book, that qualifies as "hand-crafted", since much of "the operation described was accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation" I have never claimed that all of our work is entirely hand crafted, that would be deceptive, although I have done pieces that are completely hand crafted, including hand cutting the raw materials.

As I have posted before, I am calling our work hand crafted from the aspect of the hand worked elements and process that (as quoted above) permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation on each part of each individual product. I hope that detailed explanation satisfies any further questions about what I mean by "hand crafted" in our video. I further hope, that given the quality of the work shown, that even the most particular personalities would accept, that when comparing one of our pieces along side say an Ethan Allen, Martin, or any other "fully processed" furniture, door, or cabinet project that the overwhelming opinion would be that ours is hand crafted. If not, then the next time your in my area, I'll rough you out a piece at the above mentioned specs, after 4, to 6 hours per square feet (if your fairly good, since African Teak is harder than my head) of working the shape with hand tools we will see if you still think it is not hand crafted. Hmm, I wonder how much I should charge for that kind of educational opportunity?

unfortunately the ftc is not on youre side. that little blurb rather explicitely states that using preformed blanks - let alone 90% finished ones - is NOT fair to call hand made. you need clarification on the hand done processes - "hand finished" and "hand assembled" for example for fair advertising. simply calling your product hand crafted is much too general and "not true" within the context of the ftc guidelines.

"more hand crafted than those other guys stuff" is not accepted by the ftc - or customers.

[dertsap]

Each piece on the video has elements or processes that include manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the type, amount, and effect of such operation. Thereby making that portion of that piece "hand-crafted"

?

elements or processes that include manually-controlled methods does not make it hand crafted , it does make that portion hand crafted but the overall product is not , if it is carved or finished by hand then it is hand carved or hand finished but if it is carved by a machine then detailed by hand then again it can not be concidered hand carved , i think that goes for any material be it cedar African teak or steel
I would like to be able to side with you on this but i can't

[twoartistic]

I want to thank both dertsap & ihavenofish. Sometimes you have to be called on the carpet to get to the next level of knowledge. So, I contacted both the FTC, and the Utah Office of Consumer Affairs, about the use of the words "hand crafted" in regards to Furniture, Door, and Cabinet manufacturing. Here is what I was told, neither the FTC nor the State of Utah has regulations concerning the use of the words hand crafted, (or similar terms) for our industry. So I asked about section 23.3 noted on this forum, for the jewelry industry. I was told that they could not interpret the language of the regulation for me. When I ask who can interpret the regulation, I was told that if a consumer complains it could go to a hearing, and a judge would hear the evidence and make a determination. In other words, on a case by case basis. To my relief both agencies agreed with me, that if elements are hand crafted, (especially in a video that features items that are entirely hand crafted) the use of the term is not deceptive. The Utah consumer affairs was most helpful in explaining the issue and the process. They told me that if an item is represented as entirely hand crafted and clearly is not, and the consumer registers a complaint that they would pursue the complaint, and it could go to a hearing where evidence would be heard to determine the claim, but they have no regulation as to what percentage of a item has to be worked by hand to qualify to use the general term. On the other hand if multiple and repeated complaints are received against a manufacture for use of deceptive language they would look into it. Again, I was reassured that we are using the term legitimately in his opinion.

I genuinely thank you guys for being persistent, it is only through the testing of ideas, and hearing differing opinions that minds can be changed and knowledge expanded. 50 years ago the opinion may have been completely different, but as our lives are touched more and more by technology, the ideas about what role it plays changes as well. Obviously their are differing opinions about the idea of the use of terms like hand crafted. Perhaps every person has their own evaluation of what feels right to them, again the conversation helps test your personal conception against others, and in this case, if that concept should change with technology, or if it should stay rooted to the general standards of a previous era.

[dertsap]

Perhaps every person has their own evaluation of what feels right to them, .

I appreciate your understanding in us voicing our opinion , ive seen many others who would have gotten insulted and upset by now , and thats not the intent

What would be the general publics opinion of what hand made or crafted is ? if something is called hand made then i think the general public would be quick to assume that it was completely done by hand without computer automated machinery . legal technicalities as most of us know can be very vague and wide open to interpretation , and as you were told can be decided by a judge who can have his own opinion of what hand crafted means , just as the people that you had talked to shared their opinion . so legally i think it's thin ice

[MrWild]

Thin ice maybe, but I consider it art. Hand crafted art, I'm not too sure, but I'd love to afford some of the work shown.

[twoartistic]

I found a great video on this topic "Kevin Kelly on how technology evolves".

Here is the link;
"http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/kevin_kelly_on_how_technology_evolves.html

Here is a link to a video that showcases the art that we produce;

http://tinyurl.com/cn4sww

You can find me on facebook www.facebook.com/twoartistic

[twoartistic]

I don't know were the quote originated from, but it sums up my feelings pretty well.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

I posed a similar forum thread on an artist site I frequent. I was surprised how much more open to technology as an augmentation to creating ones vision, than some of the folks on this technology heavy site. One stated the case very well when she said, "Since my medium is charcoal, I could claim that oil painting is not really art because of the higher level of technology used in the production of oil paints."

Making a mud pie, or finger painting a clay fresco on a rock face is truly hand-made art. As soon as you dig the clay out with a stick, or mash berries with a rock for pigment, you have used a tool. Tools are an extension of the artist. They give the artist greater freedom of expression. The more advanced our technology becomes, the further expression will be pushed.

The bottom line for me is, that the software, and CNC makes some things so much more efficient than using the hand method that it makes it the hand method unpractical. Every piece of art I create is completed by hand, some are hand-made from conception to completion. There is an imperfection, an authenticity, an expression of mastery, that comes from the hand-made item. Still when it comes to getting paid, for my clients, the pocket book opens wider with a mix of engineering and technology combined with hand crafted touches.

Here is a recent video; Animoto - Shane McKenna Engineer - Designer - Artist - Craftsman
It has more of my engineering side presented.

[dertsap]

The bottom line for me is, that the software, and CNC makes some things so much more efficient than using the hand method that it makes it the hand method unpractical. Every piece of art I create is completed by hand, some are hand-made from conception to completion. .

I don't think that the question of using machines to create art was as much of an issue than claiming machine created art as " hand crafted " , when it is only hand finished , read your own words from above , your making the parts with cad/cam and a machine then "finishing " by hand
hand finished and hand created are two different things

BTW your stuff is beautiful work and is certainly art so theres no questioning that and i don't think that anyone could argue that point

.

[twoartistic]

I visited an Amish furniture manufacture. They build OK stuff, not high end, but they certainly get all the credit for hand crafting. So the guy sets the fence on the table saw with a hand lever to keep the fence from moving in relationship with the saw blade. Next he grabs a board and guides it through the saw. BTW, electric saw, but I digress. A series of boards go into the glue clamps to make a panel. The cured panel goes through a planer. He is building a hutch with a curved top, so he clamps it up into a jig, sets a template into position, and uses a router with a template follower to cut the curve. He runs the router back and fourth to get any material missed as the router tends to push away from the material in the climb cut.

The only difference between his panel, and mine cut with a CNC, is I create my template in the software, and I can cut 4 panels on my table without changing out the material. My tool is more versatile, and I need less physical space to store my templates. Before the panel goes on the CNC, and after it comes off the process only differs in the vision and skill of the craftsman. BTW, he does his carvings with a pattern follower and a router. He can buy the master shape, carve it himself, make it out of bondo and cardboard, etc. I build my rough outs in the computer, or do them by hand-carving, or hand routing. Other than that our process is exactly the same, well except I use finer wood stock and finishes.

The technology does not replace the need to do hand work, for either of us. So why would he get to call his hand-made, and I don't? I put the same amount of hand work into a piece that he does. In fact I do more. When I carve a moulding, I don't use a moulder, I raster a tool to rough out the shape, then hand-carve, scrape, and finally sand the moulding. He only has to sand after moulding. Oh and one other difference, they build hundreds of the same piece at a time, assembly line style. I build them one at a time, each one original and unique from any other piece on the planet. Until you find me someone who harvests wood with there bare hands, and gnaws table legs like a beaver, I have to call all other technology just tools. Or show me the piece that came off my CNC table untouched by human hand to make it what it is.

Someone brought up the gear table I built as a past example of not hand made. I did not cut out the glue ups on the CNC, I did that on a table saw. 10 exact wedges for each gear. Precisely cut so that they do not gap anywhere, front to back, or center to outer edge. Try that one on your table saw, it is a lot harder than it looks. 1/4 of a degree off, and you accumulate a 2.5 degree error with 10 wedges, and they don't fit. And your blade has to be exactly perpendicular to the table because Afrimosa is far too hard to press fit. It either fits, and you get a perfect joint, or it does not. The truth is, the CNC will not give you that perfect of a cut, Bearing run-out will put ever so slight an angle on the edge. Not enough that you would ever see it with a square, but enough to give you fits with super hard woods, and trying to fit 10 pieces simultaneously. Hand-crafting is also setting up your tools to make cuts like that. Knowing how the fence tends to flex if you put too much pressure against it, instead of using it just as a guide. Since I designed and built my CNC, I would have to say that getting that setup also has a degree of bearing on the crafting of my furniture. If I didn't take the time to carefully fabricate each part and assemble it with the utmost attention to detail, then anything I produced on it would suffer.

Hand-crafting is not about the tools you use, it is about how you use the tools. But alas, I doubt we will ever agree, so we will ever disagree until one of us moves on.

[louieatienza]

Now, what if you bought pre-planed guitar top set, but cut them down with a handsaw and made the jointed teh edges with a sharp plane. Is it then still handmade, even though the materials wer bought from a company that uses machinery?

There is something romantic about completely handmade things, and as a cabinetmaker and woodworker, as well as former artist and musician, I can appreciated the amount of skill necessaryto do such work.

There was a time when this was the main way people made things; and we weren't in such a rush. Tough to do nowadays; there are a few that will pay for the "privelage" of a handmade instrument; machine-made can cater more to the masses.

Which brings up another issue: we as consumers partially drive the move for machine-made, since we're always looking for the best quality at the lowerst price, as fast as possible. Wood is not a piece of metal whose surface can be analyzed by a computer and camera. Nor can you cut a piece to .001" without considering that it can 'move' as much as .030" ...

Then again, the best machinery in the world can't mask poor design nor poor programming. At the same time, there is an 'artistry' involved in picking the right piece of wood, or working with a piece of "special" wood. A CNC is indifferent to such wood and how it moves. Woodworkers today act more like engineers and machinists...

[ihavenofish]

Hand-crafting is not about the tools you use, it is about how you use the tools. But alas, I doubt we will ever agree, so we will ever disagree until one of us moves on.

actually, hand crafting is EXPLICITELY about the tools you use. that is the point of the phrase entirely. you might not ever agree, but it doesnt make you any less wrong.

[louieatienza]

"Someone brought up the gear table I built as a past example of not hand made. I did not cut out the glue ups on the CNC, I did that on a table saw. 10 exact wedges for each gear. Precisely cut so that they do not gap anywhere, front to back, or center to outer edge. Try that one on your table saw, it is a lot harder than it looks. 1/4 of a degree off, and you accumulate a 2.5 degree error with 10 wedges, and they don't fit. And your blade has to be exactly perpendicular to the table because Afrimosa is far too hard to press fit. It either fits, and you get a perfect joint, or it does not. The truth is, the CNC will not give you that perfect of a cut, Bearing run-out will put ever so slight an angle on the edge. Not enough that you would ever see it with a square, but enough to give you fits with super hard woods, and trying to fit 10 pieces simultaneously. Hand-crafting is also setting up your tools to make cuts like that. Knowing how the fence tends to flex if you put too much pressure against it, instead of using it just as a guide. Since I designed and built my CNC, I would have to say that getting that setup also has a degree of bearing on the crafting of my furniture. If I didn't take the time to carefully fabricate each part and assemble it with the utmost attention to detail, then anything I produced on it would suffer. "

As a former "hand-crafter," and other hand-crafters will know, even with a carefully set-up jointer it's not easy to get perfectly square and true edges that when mated will produce a perfectly flat surface. I used to do quite a few "pie-cut" tabletops, and yes, cutting 8 equal pieces that are exactly 45 degrees for example, and getting them to fit perfectly, is not easy. I would always err on the plus side of the angle. If, in my case, I had 8 staves, I'd take each pair, clamp them together back-to-back lining up the glue edge, and take a very sharp plane set to take super-thin shavings, and true both edges to each other. Even if I'm off 1/2 degree from square, I know that when glued together the angles are complementary and will produce a flat surface. Once all four pairs are glued up and dry, I repeat the same procedure now with two pairs, and again with both halves. Maybe one stave won't be exactly 45 degrees, but the glue lines will be as tight as I can get them.

Now, purely, could you describe what I had just done hand-crafting, if I used a tablesaw and taper jig to cut the staves? I believe that I hand-fitted the staves, but by no means it is hand-crafted. To extend this further, what if I made the tablesaw in my shop - does this mean now that what I did is hand-crafted? Maybe if I used a hacksaw, brace, and file?

I have to admit, my convictions then were so strong, that I almost never took pictures of my work, because I actually thought then it was an act of vanity, and I had no need to impress myself! Alas, I only have snippets of what I once was and did, as well as the few lucky (or unlucky) souls who were the recipients of my doings!

Don't get me wrong... I'm a strong advocate of using technology. But to me, I use technology to rid myself of some of the "drudgery" of repetitive hand-work that is more efficiently done with CNC. I believe Gustav Stickley said something similar with the advent of the industrial revolution. He and his minions did most of their roughing operations with machinery, but still did most of their joint-fitting by hand. Even then, they weren't pretentious and said their pieces were "hand-crafted."

Maybe "hand-made" or "hand crafted" is not the best term to use. Maybe the title of this thread should be "Technology vs. Tradition." I'm not saying that we should all become purists, carve everything with one chisel and mallet, and live in a microbus and eat cereal three times a day! But I also feel that there are a lot of folks out their who build or use CNCs to "manufacture" or "machine" wood and wood products, and call themselvevs "woodworkers," and don't know the difference between quartersawn, flatsawn, and riftsawn; or what grain runout or short grain is; who don't take into account the fact that wood "moves" quite a bit even when "dry;" they treat wood like it's a piece of metal with finite expansion/contraction properties, with no discernable grain patterns...

In fact I have to laugh when I read threads of people building wood routers, and looking for accuracies of .0005" or better, not realizing that wood could move more than 60 fold that measurement, per foot! I've done a few acoustic guitar rosettes, and if the humidity and temperature aren't stable in my shop, I can literally have a round rosette channel turn into an oval one in literally minutes, making a premade rosette almost impossible to fit!

I would say 99.9 percent of the time, when we sand something, it's to get rid of toolmarks left by our machines, whether CNC or manual, so our finished products look "perfect." There was a time when the method of smoothing wood were hand scrapers instead of random orbit sanders with hook-and-loop paper. And instead of using detail sanders and what-not to remove the toolmarks left by our ball endmills, the old-timers used the sharpest tools they could, and made the cleanest cuts they could. Toolmarks were kept to a minimum, but almost never sanded out, leaving crisp detail almost unachievable with a CNC. Dovetail joints were hand-cut, and scribe lines were used to help guide the chisel for the shoulder cuts. These scribe lines were left on the drawer sides, and proudly so; they were not sanded, filled, or otherwise hidden.

So to reiterate - I'm not saying using CNC is a bad thing; heck I have built one, and am building two more! I built my first one with a Skilsaw, drill, jigsaw, belt sander, and some screwdrivers and wrenches. But I'd never say it was handmade, nor anything made with it! We are a community of CNC nuts, who use our machines, hopefully, as a means to an end, rather than an end unto itself. I won't say that a purist who uses only hand-powered tools is more talented than the one who uses a CNC; it's just different talent, none better than the other.

Again, instead of "hand-made", it might be better to say "traditional." The Parthenon, Pyramids, Coliseum, Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria... well, THEY were hand made!

[twoartistic]

actually, hand crafting is EXPLICITELY about the tools you use. that is the point of the phrase entirely. you might not ever agree, but it doesnt make you any less wrong.

I strongly disagree. Very few things that are hand-crafted are made without tools. The term hand-made has everything to do with how you use your hand worked elements AND tools. Now if you create something in a rapid prototype machine, a press, etc and the form is never altered by hand then it is not hand-made. I agree that things range in the amount of hand work put into the piece. But by your definition if you use any tool at all, then it is not hand made. If you acquire materials that have been harvested other than by bare hands, then your definition, that would make them non-hand-made.

Perhaps that is your definition, but it is not the prevailing definition, and No amount of restating it makes you any less wrong.

I never said every piece on my video is hand-made only some of them, although most of them have extensive hand worked elements in them.

[ihavenofish]

......But by your definition if you use any tool at all, then it is not hand made.

um, no, thats not my definition at all.

you might want to make up your own definition, but please dont make them up for me as well.

[twoartistic]

Then please enlighten me, what tools and materials are allowed to be used and still call something hand-crafted?

[dertsap]

what tools and materials are allowed to be used and still call something hand-crafted?

i certainly wouldn't think robotics would fall into this category

[wjfiles]

I think the difference is simple,
Hand made or hand crafted is made using hand tools and their skilled use by the craftsman. I don't think it matters on how the raw material used was produced.
WJF

[twoartistic]

i certainly wouldn't think robotics would fall into this category

What materials used by the typical craftsman is not touched by robotics/automation?

Wood? Nope, the harvesting and planking of wood is loaded with robotics. Unless you cut your own, and as I will point out that involves robotics as well.

Fasteners? Automated.

Tools? Dang, those are spit out by machines as well.

Paint? Completely robotic, except for that guy who cuts the bags open for batching.

Glue? This is getting sticky, but it is made by machines.

Sandpaper? Mass produced.

You will be hard pressed to find a tool or material that is untouched by robotics in this modern age. Even then they were processed, loaded, shipped, counted and sold to the craftsman using countless computers and mass produced machines.

Does that make the hand work done by that craftsman AFTER these tools and materials any less hand done? No. And that is my point, it is what the craftsman does in addition to what machines do that is hand-crafting. Otherwise we need to abandon the notion all together, because, it is getting harder and harder to accomplish anything without it being touched by automation.

As I mentioned before, when I posted this same topic on an artist forum none of them had this take. They all get that their work is heavily impacted by technology, and that it is nearly impossible to create any piece of art today without the implementation of technology. A hand-carved molding is still hand-carved whether the blank was cut out with a hand scroll saw, jigsaw, bandsaw or CNC. Again, I offer the challenge, what piece of furniture on my video is not hand-crafted?

Animoto - Shane McKenna Engineer - Designer - Artist - Craftsman

Since some of you enjoy the cerebral gymnastics required to take me to task on this point, please show me a modern craftsman's work that is not touched by technology prior to the hand work that makes it so. When you can do that, I will consider your argument. Be sure to identify the artist so that I can inquire to his/her methods.

[twoartistic]

I think the difference is simple,
Hand made or hand crafted is made using hand tools and their skilled use by the craftsman. I don't think it matters on how the raw material used was produced.
WJF

Exactly! The CNC is just a part of the material preparation. The skill and craftsmanship is what happens AFTER the roughed out piece comes off of the machine. My point exactly!