[MonoNeuron]

Hey Milly,
I too have had concerns about the cleaning out of the water tank after days/weeks of cutting.
I have left numerous posts all over the place on several forums and YouTube and no-one ever gets back to me on how they do it! (secretly I think they sell the table and buy a new one as it would be quicker).
I decided to build mine without the tank because of this reason alone. I thought about a bank of Neo magnets covered in thick plastic attached to a board with a handle for easy cleaning but it still probably wouldn't fish out the big parts that drop inside (think long and thin between the slats).
That's another reason I made my slats in a serpentine path across the table.

I was also thinking of a motorized scraper that scrapes all the dross/parts towards the front and have it ride on a frame a few inches above the ground on the way back. Part of the track at the front would be hinged to allow the scraper to pass through it as it scrapes then drop down as it goes past allowing the scraper to ride back up and over on it's way to the rear.
It will be cable or chain driven with a limit switch at the back to stop the cycle.
All easy to do and use. Just push a button and all the parts are scraped towards the front and it turns off once the cycle is finished.
Wire it up like double light switches.
Maybe you could implement something like it with yours
I made a rough sketch to show what I mean.
Rich.

[millman52]

Hey Milly,
I too have had concerns about the cleaning out of the water tank after days/weeks of cutting.
I have left numerous posts all over the place on several forums and YouTube and no-one ever gets back to me on how they do it! (secretly I think they sell the table and buy a new one as it would be quicker).
I decided to build mine without the tank because of this reason alone. I thought about a bank of Neo magnets covered in thick plastic attached to a board with a handle for easy cleaning but it still probably wouldn't fish out the big parts that drop inside (think long and thin between the slats).
That's another reason I made my slats in a serpentine path across the table.



Rich.

Regardless what you do even if it's mechanized the stuff that comes out has to be the worst kind of nasty muck. Then what do you do with it?? If the environmental people happen by I'm sure it would be near impossible to convince them it isn't some sort of near nuclear toxic waste.

I didn't want to have to fish small parts out of the drink either. No matter what configuration your slats are something is still going to find it's way down.
Without using a magnet or other hateful device that wants to grab everything but the part you want. How the H*** are you supposed to get a small part out of the tray in the middle of the table just out of arms reach & just deep enough below the slats fingers will not reach either.........

I'll just keep venting mine with a huge 46" overhead exhaust fan that will nearly suck the shirt right off your back. When I add plasma I most likely will just not use it in really cold weather (apx. 2 1/2 months of the year). Just revert back to OX/Fuel on 1/2" down to 1/4"

[Dustin407]

I know that the waterbed is a great advantage in many ways. Although it has many disadvantages that come with it. I dont have a lot of experience with cnc plasma but I came up with one good idea on the waterbed that I saw everyone aving problems with. I have constructed my waterbed out of alum. 4'x8'x5" after it gets dirty enough the tank is just sitting on a stand. I can just carry the 50 lb tank outside in the grass rinse it out and put it right back on the table. With the parts that fall in the tank I guess everyone will have to deal with that and just reach down and get them... Magnets are a good idea but sometimes they can make more problems than they are worth....

P.S. watch neo magnets around plasma they have explosive powders inside...

[semi-lucid]

millman

In another thread you asked about aluminum linear rails, I couldn't really tell from the photo, but Rexroth makes their "E-Line" with either balls or rollers:

http://www.boschrexroth-us.com/count...line/index.jsp

They also make their Cam Roller Guides: (steel rails)

http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/uti...px?division=LT

SKF also makes some with aluminum rails with steel inlays.

I've been spending _too_ much time looking at linear rails, and I'm still thinking about building my own.


If I remember correctly, your using an Oxweld torch, are you not?

semi

[millman52]

millman

In another thread you asked about aluminum linear rails, I couldn't really tell from the photo, but Rexroth makes their "E-Line" with either balls or rollers:

http://www.boschrexroth-us.com/count...line/index.jsp

They also make their Cam Roller Guides: (steel rails)

http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/uti...px?division=LT

SKF also makes some with aluminum rails with steel inlays.

I've been spending _too_ much time looking at linear rails, and I'm still thinking about building my own.


If I remember correctly, your using an Oxweld torch, are you not?

semi

First thanks for the reply. I certainly appreciate anyone taking time to help.

Bosch's E line is still a recirculating ball type of rail. Still no way to really seal it from grit.

No way do I want to deal with cam rollers.

SKF's Speedi-Roll is the typical linear rail with V groove bearings. Other manufacturers have a similar system also. Will work & I'm sure will resist wear from grit much better that the standard recirculating ball type of rail most people are using. Still not quite what I am looking for mainly because of it's bulkier size.

Yes I am using Oxweld torch. I like Oxweld products & have always receieved extermely long service life from their stuff. I haven't checked what tips are availible for others (Victor, Harris, Etc.) Oxweld has a tip for every circumstance & gas. Regular or High Speed. Some thickness I get better results with HS tips yet others I use standard tips.

[semi-lucid]

That leaves me wondering what type of rail you have? Is it just a plain sliding unit, with no balls or rollers? I went and found that other thread, to see the picture again, but I can't tell much from the picture.

About Oxweld torches..... I bought six older Union Carbide/Linde machine torches similar to yours. (yours looks like a newer ESAB)

I got these torches pretty cheap, but they are fire damaged. The fire damage is not severe though, they have some plastic dripped down on them, and the fire was not hot enough for the plastic to burn up, but only hot enough to melt it.

I think the packing in the valves is ok, I'm not positive, but the valves seem to still be good.

However, these torches appear to be assembled using solder, and the fire was hot enough to at least partially melt some of this solder. One of them has a drop of solder frozen on the side, where it dripped out. On the others, the solder just looks like it was softened in place, without flowing out.

I bought these torches because I'm interested in shortening one of them for use in a CNC bevel cutting set up. I'm wondering if there is any info out there about disassembling and reassembling these units.

Do you have a closer picture of your rail?

[millman52]

Yipee!!! Finally found the type rail I am looking for. Mfd. in Germany. Now if I can purchase it from a distributor in the US.

Take a look & see if you agree with me in that it is a superior design for use in a dirty environment. I'm sure the recirculating ball type is probably more rigid & will hold more exact tolerances in a clean environment.

http://shop.franke-gmbh.de/en1/linea...ke_dynamik.asp

[millman52]

That leaves me wondering what type of rail you have? Is it just a plain sliding unit, with no balls or rollers? I went and found that other thread, to see the picture again, but I can't tell much from the picture.

About Oxweld torches..... I bought six older Union Carbide/Linde machine torches similar to yours. (yours looks like a newer ESAB)

I got these torches pretty cheap, but they are fire damaged. The fire damage is not severe though, they have some plastic dripped down on them, and the fire was not hot enough for the plastic to burn up, but only hot enough to melt it.

I think the packing in the valves is ok, I'm not positive, but the valves seem to still be good.

However, these torches appear to be assembled using solder, and the fire was hot enough to at least partially melt some of this solder. One of them has a drop of solder frozen on the side, where it dripped out. On the others, the solder just looks like it was softened in place, without flowing out.

I bought these torches because I'm interested in shortening one of them for use in a CNC bevel cutting set up. I'm wondering if there is any info out there about disassembling and reassembling these units.

Do you have a closer picture of your rail?

The roller carrage body is constructed of aluminum & has 4 sealed needle bearings in each side. The piece I now have may not be made by the same company as listed in the link above but it's the same design. When it comes to size the rail is about 20MM wide & about the same height. The roller carrage, even though it has sealed needle bearings is only slightly taller than the typical recirculating ball carrage. And is for all practical purposes the same width.

I have 3 of the same type but in the shorter barrel like the one on my CNC table, & commonly found on Linde track torches. They were take offs from a Linde burning table.

You are right that the one now mounted on my table is ESAB I purchased it new.

I have never seen information on rebuilding torch barrels. I know my local Airgas dealer offers rebuilding services. I dought you could talk them into shortening one though because of liability issues.

Neil

[semi-lucid]

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I had not found that one, even though I've looked at products from probably two dozen company's. (or more)

It's a logical concept, and should be more dust resistant than recirculating balls, but I'm not sure if it would be any better in that regard than the Rexroth Cam Roller setup.

However, it looks like it would have better load carrying capacity then the Rexroth Cam Rollers, especially axially.

The advantage of the Rex C Rollers's is they use a round bar for the track, which should be cheaper, especially in very long length's.

Interesting.

[millman52]

Thanks for the link. Interesting. I had not found that one, even though I've looked at products from probably two dozen company's. (or more)

It's a logical concept, and should be more dust resistant than recirculating balls, but I'm not sure if it would be any better in that regard than the Rexroth Cam Roller setup.

However, it looks like it would have better load carrying capacity then the Rexroth Cam Rollers, especially axially.

The advantage of the Rex C Rollers's is they use a round bar for the track, which should be cheaper, especially in very long length's.

Interesting.

You are probably right in that they may not be any better as regarding dust. Eventually dust is going to wear parts. I guess the only question I might have with the rexroth (and other similar) carrages is: If you think of the amount of roll, pitch, & yaw the carrage may have after mounted on the rail.

I actually talked with one of the bearing/rail companys
"Application Asistance Dept." that has a similar setup but using "V" groove bearings similar to the one pictured below. I was told that the Yaw, or amount of twist the carrier would have if preloaded correctly would be 0.00 but there would be some although very slight pitch & roll. The wheels or double row bearing assemblys are not preloaded. Therefore a small amount of twist between the inner & outer bearing races. Very minimal yes, but still some.

The Franke rail with double 45 degree needle roller bearings, when preloaded is next to 0.00 in all directions. Important when space constraints require using only 1 rail.

If I could use 2 rails running parallel even the worn recirculating ball rail & carrage would last much longer than it does. I'm just trying to eleminate a complete re-design of my gantry.

If you go back to the very first pages of this build log & look at my simple round bar with 4 double row ball bearings, arranged 90 degrees apart design. The carrage simply sits on top of the round bar & nothing but gravity holding it down, has worked flawlessly. It was also as cheap as you could get. The oposite side is single row ball bearings running on top & bottom of a length of cold rolled flat bar. The round bar & V configured rollers keep the gantry running parallel with the table, while the other side merely is a platform for wheels to support the gantry. This allows the gantry to grow & contract with heat changes & not create bearing bind.

If I were building again I'd probably use single V rail & a pair of V grove bearings simply because of building ease (less hours in the machine shop). Not because I think the V grove stuff is better. The single "C" rollers also would work well on top of common CR round bar.

I now have a line out on the Franke (pronounced more like fronk, German) A few days will let me know price & how long an order will take.

I have also found the same sort of rail with Parker/Origa http://www.parkeroriga.com/prod_alum...er_guides.html Link to pdf catalog http://www.parkeroriga.com/pdf_catal...ear_Guides.pdf Applied Industrial Technoligies (Applied Bearing) https://www.applied.com/apps/commerc....jsp?timeout=y
Who has distributors everywhere in the USA is supposed to carry, or at least be able to order them

[semi-lucid]

I agree with your point about the Rexroth Cam Rollers, and Vee rails for that matter. I looked at the Rexroth product for awhile, and decided against using them, for much the same reason that you described.

"I have also found the same sort of rail with Parker/Origa"

When I downloaded the Franke catalog, the last page gave their USA contact as:
Hoerbiger Origa Corporation
100 West Lake Drive
Glendale Heights, IL 60139 hoerbiger.com

It looks like Parker bought Hoerbiger, because they have the same address.

Parker ORIGA Corporation
100 West Lake Drive
Glendale Heights, IL 60139

Therefore, I'm guessing it's not the "same sort or rail", it's the same rail.

Again, thanks much for the link. I made an attempt to answer your question, and you may have answered mine instead. My question now is price???
I'm not sure how Parker is on price, but if they are the USA broker, there may not be any choice but to go through them.

I'm designing a very different type of machine, and I'm looking for milling machine type rigidity, but at the same time, light weight, and moderate cost.

As far as dirt goes, I've been thinking of enclosed rails from the very beginning. I'm amazed to see how many machines are built with exposed rails, but then again, enclosing them is a complication and expense.

John

[millman52]

I know looking at the pictures of Parker/Origa and Franke they look identical & I had gone far enough in their literature to know they were both a German product. So I'd not be at all surprised if they don't come down the same assembly line just get a different logo stamped on them.


Airborn dust is much like anti-sieze compound. Get a drop of it on your finger in the morning, Somehow it'll be on the end of your big toe inside your boot & sock by the end of the day.

[millman52]

I receieved a bit of pricing information on Parker Origa aluminum linear rail on Friday.

Although I don't have exact pricing nailed down for the rail length I need I seems to be about the same as other premium rail like THK, Thomson, IKO etc.

I have determined exact part #s for the bearing rail & casette. I'll be contacting my distributor on Monday to get final pricing information.

The bearing casette is available with truely sealed bearings, rail wipers, & metal rail scrapers. Both of which are recomended by a design engineer I spoke with at Parker-Origa.

I was also assured this particular type of rail is well suited for the dusty, gritty environment of a plasma table.

[semi-lucid]

So, when you contacted Franke directly, did they refer you to Parker?

Reading Franke's web site, I got the impression that this was supposed to be an economical solution.

I imagine the shipping cost from Germany, plus the lousy strength of the U.S. dollar vs the Euro cant help. The shipping cost on long pieces of rail might be ridiculous, unless you shipped a container load of them.

[millman52]

So, when you contacted Franke directly, did they refer you to Parker?

Reading Franke's web site, I got the impression that this was supposed to be an economical solution.

I imagine the shipping cost from Germany, plus the lousy strength of the U.S. dollar vs the Euro cant help. The shipping cost on long pieces of rail might be ridiculous, unless you shipped a container load of them.

Franke has a distributor in the US. They wanted me to fill out a design spec sheet to determine for themselves if it was the proper rail/bearing for the application. The Parker Origa rail (same rail & bearing) has a stocking warehouse in Chicago IL. They use Applied Bearing Technologies for their distribution network. Applied has 3 locations within 50 mi. of me. Of course They don't stock & I pretty much had to determine the exact part #s etc. to be sure they would order the correct parts. Educate them in other words.

After talking with the design Tech in Chicago, I am very confident it is the correct & best choice of rail for a burning table. He was very helpful & seemed willing to actually listen to the problems I was having with other rail So he could best help me find a solution.

He then offered to plug all the parameters (weight carried, speed of travel, environment, etc) into their design software & see what the computer kicked out as a best match. For my machine 20MM rail with 1 bearing still had a 30% margin before needing to go with 2 bearings

His opinion that any recirculating ball type linear rail other than Round with 360 deg. full round bearings would be a poor choice for the application. He did mention that standard types of flat rail wouldn't be so bad if the fasteners came through the bottom. leaving a surface on top that a seal could manage to clean the rail. Made sense to me.

The Parker alum rail has nylon plugs to cap off the screw holes to create a sealable surface on top or you can get threaded holes & mount the rail from the underside.

Even being more expensive than han Hiwin & a couple of the others. If it holds up for longer term & the big bonus without having to continually lube then clean up the mess. It will bw well worth the extra money.

[millman52]

I decided to go with the High performance bearing carrage with wiper seals and metal scrapers which gives me a first & second line of defense to help keep contamination from entering the bearing casette. $145.51 US. for the 20 MM size.

1700 MM of rail cut to length with equal 1st. bolt spacing from each end (2)cuts on the rail, $341.73 total. $313.67 for the rail & $28.06 cut charge(s) for a total of $487.24.

Hiwin rail & bearing as near as I can compair a price for 20MM is $305.49. a differance of $181.75. Pretty big price gap.

I still believe the service life of the Origa or Franke system will be much greater than any recirculating ball type of flat rail. At least with the Origa when wear does begin to develop, the preload can be reset on the bearing which should at least give some added length to it's useful life. Anyway I took the plunge & ordered it today.

Time only will tell if my decision is good or bad. If I get 2 years then I have saved money. 18 months or less I gave money away.

My table is in the same section of the shop that all the welding, grinding etc. goes on. That on top of not having a water or down draft table creates just about the harshest environment possible for precision linear rail to live.

I have also found this product http://www.pacific-bearing.com/IVTAAB-Bolt-On.aspx I believe it would work pretty good for a plasma table also. Just from memory I believe the bearing carrier with shields/wipers etc was also near $150.00. The rail however is only around $95.00 for a 1700 MM length. To be in it's optimum load bearing orientation the rail needed to be mounted to the side of a gantry rather than on top. The PBC system is also much bulkier in size which pretty much ruled it out for my repair project.

[MonoNeuron]

http://video.designworldonline.com/c...E5A/MECHANICAL

Just been looking at the Bishop Wisecarver booth video at Design World and thought you might want to have a quick look at the new stuff they have.
Even if you don't go with anything like this it still makes for an interesting view.
The guide rails also can be fitted with wipers and lube pads for extra protection and longevity and is fully documented on their website.
Personally, I prefer this over almost all other types for linear applications.
Rich.

[millman52]

http://video.designworldonline.com/c...E5A/MECHANICAL

Just been looking at the Bishop Wisecarver booth video at Design World and thought you might want to have a quick look at the new stuff they have.
Even if you don't go with anything like this it still makes for an interesting view.
The guide rails also can be fitted with wipers and lube pads for extra protection and longevity and is fully documented on their website.
Personally, I prefer this over almost all other types for linear applications.
Rich.

Interesting you should bring up Bishop Wisecarver. I had been in touch with TEA Machine Components in regards to the B-W Lo Pro line as a possible solution for my gantry. I receieved a quote back from them today on a 1700 MM length of the track & a bearing carrier with as much shielding of the dual v wheels as they offer.

1700 MM of track part # M1ATP/1700 $517.91....
bearing carrier # BWP1SWWCBC $349.57.....

I couldn't believe it would be that expensive. Nearly soiled my shorts

Before I called TEA, I called B-W at their California headquarters office to try & get pricing information. Had no luck with that. It seems their products quite possibly have different pricing. Depending on what part of the USA one is located. I was given the name & a toll charge phone # of the person I needed to contact in the eastern US.

I tried to explain to the person I spoke with, All I wanted was a standard retail price for the 2 products. That would have given me enough information to decide if I wanted to persue it further.

But NOOOOooooooo! They had to waste even more of my time & now TEA's time in finding out the product is way over priced.

The Pacific Bearing product is practically identical in concept. The bearing carrier is basically the same at less thn 1/2 the price. The 1700MM length of Pacific rail is less than 1/5 the price. & most likely hold up as long on a torch gantry.

Neil

[MonoNeuron]

"Expletive".
I can't believe the price. Do these people really want a sale or do they just hold out for the "Boeing" companies that seem to have unlimited finances to keep them going .

I bought mine from Fred at IMServices.com and they were pretty cheap and he will cut to order. I think he is active on the Zone but I haven't seen him around for a while.

You could drill and tap the holes for the rail onto another low profile Al extrusion and bolt it to your frame afterwards which wouldn't set you back too much in down time.
Just a thought.
The rails you want still have flats on them like the cam roller type which would still need to be wiped clean all the time and as you say the dust is very wearing on these parts even with the wipers.
I still like the self cleaning rollers on the Bishop WC ones.
I just use the V rollers on angle iron and don't seem to have any trouble but I have only used it for about 10 hours so my answers are probably moot for you.

[millman52]

Although I didn't check into it I'm quite sure I can purchase Ground & polished CRS in flat form . All it would take is to add a couple of the hardened IMS rails, 4 bearings & 2 eccentrics all for about $200.00 Throw in about 6-8 hours in the machine shop & there you have it.

If I were on a tight budget Exactly what I'd do. I'm fortunate that my table makes money every day & would just rather take the "low man hours" approach to fixing it.

That almost always translates into spending more money.