[skillalot]

If everyone would just stop b*itching to each other and would start helping Louie moving his stuff, then we could see some real footage of the machine soon, that will tell us much more then the crap here in the last 100 pages.

[louieatienza]

If everyone would just stop b*itching to each other and would start helping Louie moving his stuff, then we could see some real footage of the machine soon, that will tell us much more then the crap here in the last 100 pages.

I've done about 70% of the cleaning and moving solo... hoping family and friends can help with the rest. I refuse to rent storage so all not getting moved is donatedoing or discarded.

I did manage to get the leads made for my steppers as I foot to order them as such. They seem to run smoothly and powerfully unloaded so I'm excited to get them on the machine.

[daniellyall]

I was talking to Ian, Lou your more experienced. doing a model of the skyfire will be a good exercise for Ian

[gary_808]

BTW.....the SVM-0 was NOT based on any other machine, not even the remotest similarity.....it was designed from the ground up with state of the art components

I beg to differ.

Nothing is state of the art about it, it's loosely based on every other mini mill tbh, nothing is ground breaking about 80's ideas,
Cheap Chinese componentry, rails/spindle/ball screws.

Also the way the rail and bearing block setup for the table is tbh pants, pretty much no machining centre of any size has a design like that these days,

Ps ball screws are so 1990's.

[louieatienza]

I beg to differ.

Nothing is state of the art about it, it's loosely based on every other mini mill tbh, nothing is ground breaking about 80's ideas,
Cheap Chinese componentry, rails/spindle/ball screws.

Also the way the rail and bearing block setup for the table is tbh pants, pretty much no machining centre of any size has a design like that these days,

Ps ball screws are so 1990's.

To be fair this isn't a machining center, more so it's a CNC bed mill. It's nice to have a small CNC mill that doesn't have some of the stiction issues of its dovetail brethren, that's all. Hiwin rails and PMI ground ballscrews (at least in my case) are not exactly cheap components. Yes not state of the art but eons above the rolled ACME screws, brass nuts, and dovetail ways of the typical hobby build.

But yes, not state of the art, ignorant comments like that are what I think irk most everyone who knows better. But realistically for a machine like this what the hell would someone need that's state of the art? Hydrostatic rails, screws, and bearings? Glass scale encoders? Linear servos? High tech composites? Latest Siemens control?

I suppose state of the art is relative. As in someone who just crawled out from under a rock.

[tmarks11]

Also the way the rail and bearing block setup for the table is tbh pants, pretty much no $35000 - $300000 machining centre of any size has a design like that these days, .

There, fixed it for you.

Let's not lose focus: we are talking about a 400# hobbyist bench top machine, not an expensive production VMC. For $3700, you can't expect thousands of hours of R&D and top of the line components and cutting edge design.

The closest hobbyist competitor with linear rails is probably the $7700 Syil X5 (twice the size, twice the price), and go read a bit in the Syil forum if you think that is a better alternative. The previous mentioned Webaco V5 is a $21k machine.

[handlewanker]

I just have to come back and defend my statement of "state of the art" in all it's definition as I intended it.

To make something that is state of the art means = that it uses "very" current and available technology.....not rocket science, way out exoticica that nobody with an ounce of brain power would think of applying, but that is currently available as a preferred method to move something from A to B or whatever, as opposed to technology that it supersedes from the age of the industrial revolution days.

You can interpret that in whatever way you choose, but as an example it's aimed at linear rails, be they SBR type or Hiwin rails in place of dovetails....... and ball screws and nuts as opposed to Acme thread and bronze nuts etc.....anything else on that score is deviating into the realms of fantasy that nobody with sense would apply to the machines we want to have and/or build.

You can add ball races in place of bronze bushes to that pile too.

As well....... if the design is fundamentally very different to current mill designs, then state of the art is not in that category.....I refer specifically to the componentry that make it work and enable it to out perform the machine designs of yesteryear.
Ian.

[xjdubber]

I refer specifically to the componentry that make it work and enable it to out perform the machine designs of yesteryear.

then by your own defenition, these machines are not "state of the art"

[daniellyall]

nonononon don`t reply

[louieatienza]

I just have to come back and defend my statement of "state of the art" in all it's definition as I intended it.

To make something that is state of the art means = that it uses "very" current and available technology.....not rocket science, way out exoticica that nobody with an ounce of brain power would think of applying, but that is currently available as a preferred method to move something from A to B or whatever, as opposed to technology that it supersedes from the age of the industrial revolution days.

You can interpret that in whatever way you choose, but as an example it's aimed at linear rails, be they SBR type or Hiwin rails in place of dovetails....... and ball screws and nuts as opposed to Acme thread and bronze nuts etc.....anything else on that score is deviating into the realms of fantasy that nobody with sense would apply to the machines we want to have and/or build.

You can add ball races in place of bronze bushes to that pile too.

As well....... if the design is fundamentally very different to current mill designs, then state of the art is not in that category.....I refer specifically to the componentry that make it work and enable it to out perform the machine designs of yesteryear.
Ian.

From Wikipedia:
"The term "state of the art" refers to the highest level of general development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field achieved at a particular time."

[ihavenofish]

From Wikipedia:
"The term "state of the art" refers to the highest level of general development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field achieved at a particular time."

the issue here is that the state of the art in cnc mechanicals hasnt changed much in nearly 40 years.

and as to the table arrangement, actually many VMC's still use this, including the haas TM series.

so while there is nothing particularly special about the skyfire machine, its also not far behind any other commercial machine.

linear motors are still fairly experimental in machines, being used in only a handful of special purpose models. these are also from the 80's too btw...

glass scales are from the 60's.

the bt30 taper from 1911....

nothing is new here except that we can afford it, so why are we complaining

[louieatienza]

the issue here is that the state of the art in cnc mechanicals hasnt changed much in nearly 40 years.

and as to the table arrangement, actually many VMC's still use this, including the haas TM series.

so while there is nothing particularly special about the skyfire machine, its also not far behind any other commercial machine.

linear motors are still fairly experimental in machines, being used in only a handful of special purpose models. these are also from the 80's too btw...

glass scales are from the 60's.

the bt30 taper from 1911....

nothing is new here except that we can afford it, so why are we complaining

Of course... it's more a matter of formerly cutting edge stuff making it into the hands of the average consumer. When I first started on a DIY path gas pipe and skate bearings were the rage. Now, even Thomson style round rail are left aside in favor of profile rail.

I know glass scales been around a long time, but able to resolve 1 micron is relatively new. NEMA23 steppers and servos took over where NEMA34 or 42 were once used. Controls limited to program size.... Eding CNC has been tested to 100 million lines of code. US consumers benefit from state of the art, though it takes years for industrial components to trickle down to us consumers. So no Compaq out that from me, but making statements that now ubiquitous parts are state of the art is a bit preposterous, and should be reserved for the bleeding edge of technology.

[tmarks11]

I, for one, wish Defeng success.

The real "innovative" thing about all this is having a small manufacturer in China who communicates directly with individuals and who is responsive to requests. Most machinery manufacturers in China are only interested in selling large lots of machinery. A good example of this was the ill-fated attempt by a group on the Sieg yahoo e-group to import a container of SX3 machines back in the 2006-2008 time frame. The manufacturer essentially told them "you are too much trouble, I can sell to large companies easier, so get lost". The "alibaba lottery" has resulted in some winners and losers, but most people don't want to gamble with $10-30k at a time.

There are obviously a few exceptions to this, where people have managed to buy direct, but that seems the exception rather than the rule.

More competition in the hobbyist cnc field can only help us.

[ihavenofish]

Of course... it's more a matter of formerly cutting edge stuff making it into the hands of the average consumer. When I first started on a DIY path gas pipe and skate bearings were the rage. Now, even Thomson style round rail are left aside in favor of profile rail.

I know glass scales been around a long time, but able to resolve 1 micron is relatively new.

nope, my 80's maho has sub micron resolution and that level was around in the 70's if not earlier. scales basically started at high precision and have gone down since (to make them cheaper).

originally in the 80's machines cost alot partly because of the mechanicals, and partly because of the electronics. these days electronics are cheap. even siemens makes a control priced in like with the svm2.

mechanicals have gotten cheaper mostly by being "lower quality". i dont eman that in a bad way. i mean that most of these parts have extreme cost increases for relatively small performance increases. back in the day, there was just no request for a machine with less than 1 micron precision because all the customers were making airplanes and cars. now, especially on the hobby end, 25 microns per 150mm is considered great by many of us and parts to those specs cost far less. the chinese internal market has done alot to drive the costs down, but the global hobby market has also done alot. its been fun to watch all the big companies basically tell george at xzero they cant lower prices, only to come back with deals after they realise just how many machines he sells. thomson, hiwin, tbi, nsk, siemens are all now acutely aware of this low cost market in large part to the hobby machine builders who are beginning to push out serious volume. THK and Yaskawa still have their head in the sand sadly.

[ihavenofish]

I, for one, wish Defeng success.

The real "innovative" thing about all this is having a small manufacturer in China who communicates directly with individuals and who is responsive to requests. Most machinery manufacturers in China are only interested in selling large lots of machinery. A good example of this was the ill-fated attempt by a group on the Sieg yahoo e-group to import a container of SX3 machines back in the 2006-2008 time frame.

thats wierd. sieg is always eager in my experience (although i had been talking to them about machines that werent in "stores" yet). ive also dealt with wiess directly and they are fine. i bought a bf16 type machine from them, and had it air shipped. they dont have a friendly forum presence like skyfire, but you can phone them and they will happily sell you a machine.

i suspect some buyers are irritating though, haha, and they may avoid them. act professional and know what you want and you should get good communication.

[hanermo]

Interesting thread..
I dont really agree with anyone, but most seem to have good intentions.

Fwiw..
"State of the art", today, is 0.01 micron glass scales, suitably tuned, feeding back into the controller, and delivering interpolated workpieces to 0.4 microns roundess at the workpiece.
With linear servos, or airbearings.
An excellent example is the moore minilathe.

Or a bit bigger, the dwg machines from mori, with 0.7 micron roundess(tir) on interpolated holes.
Or a bit bigger, the machines for producing linear guideways, 50 m long, on air bearings, and an interferometric feedback for 1 micron volumetric accuracy.

[ihavenofish]

Interesting thread..
I dont really agree with anyone, but most seem to have good intentions.

Fwiw..
"State of the art", today, is 0.01 micron glass scales, suitably tuned, feeding back into the controller, and delivering interpolated workpieces to 0.4 microns roundess at the workpiece.
With linear servos, or airbearings.
An excellent example is the moore minilathe.

Or a bit bigger, the dwg machines from mori, with 0.7 micron roundess(tir) on interpolated holes.
Or a bit bigger, the machines for producing linear guideways, 50 m long, on air bearings, and an interferometric feedback for 1 micron volumetric accuracy.

DMG on a linear scale machine quote 4 to 8 microns within the working envelope depending on machine size and performance level. some have linear motors, some dont. that's the dimensional standard they have used for at least a decade. my maho from nearly 30 years ago was rated 1 micron precision, but under a different standard which doesn't account for squareness and other physical deviations. with the same measuring standard, its likely on par with or a little worse than the new machines.

i dont count niche micromachine tools as state of the art, they are special purpose and not directly comparable. same with the linear motors DMG uses. they dont have a broad application, only special use. there is no linear motor that would fit in a skyfire and have the linear force required (trust me, ive looked).

[louieatienza]

Interesting thread..
I dont really agree with anyone, but most seem to have good intentions.

Fwiw..
"State of the art", today, is 0.01 micron glass scales, suitably tuned, feeding back into the controller, and delivering interpolated workpieces to 0.4 microns roundess at the workpiece.
With linear servos, or airbearings.
An excellent example is the moore minilathe.

Or a bit bigger, the dwg machines from mori, with 0.7 micron roundess(tir) on interpolated holes.
Or a bit bigger, the machines for producing linear guideways, 50 m long, on air bearings, and an interferometric feedback for 1 micron volumetric accuracy.

That's well and good, but completely unnecessary for a machine that has accuracy of maybe .002"-.001". The machine you reference are 6-figure machines, and being compared to a sub $4k machine. Maybe DMGs latest offering is state of the art, But we're not talking about a cutting edge machine. We're taking about every day utility for the common man, using it for serious hobby or light to medium small work production.

The SVM series is what it is, and doesn't need the hyperbolae of a cheerleader (who hasn't handled one to know) to sell itself, it would do just fine on its own.

[ihavenofish]

yup. machines tend to speak for themselves for the most part. well, through their owners, machines cant talk :P

theres always going to be a group that hates them because they are not a ferrari for the price of a kia, instead of just a kia for the price of a kia, but they will never get it, and dont have to. doesnt affect the rest of us in the least.

[victorofga]

I cant believe folks are serious on this topic..

they are calling what recommend hiwin or thk to installing their rails..
that's a nice write up... however the solution what defeng showed plenty enough for the output what an average homeshop capable to doing..
that way the machine will be enough precise down to 0.02-0.03 mm

checking with FEA , I think you just kidding as if it were april first.. FEA mainly works with sheetmetal structures likely a brige or similar..
you can apply for cast iromn structures, but a real analysys will cost way more that customers of these machine ever could pay..

all these considerations about precision you all can mention when you buy a datron, or a kern evo example.. both machine cost from 200-300K from basic 3 axis..
those machines worth to inspect with FEA..
this machine what visible built for general works, jobs these concerning just like one try to buying a wooden handle for showel, and checking with micrometer...

what would you all say, if were see someone in the lowes measuring a showel handle with micrometer?