[Geof]

.... If you happen to have a spare acre in your back yard, you can raise enough maize to make enough ethanol to drive even a gas-guzzling Land Rover (17.5 miles per gallon) about 5,000 miles, along with enough animal feed to help keep you in eggs and chicken....

Sometimes I try to give reasoned discussions although I admit Mariss if far better than me at that. I am not even go to try for this one; this claim is absolute, utter rubbish.

EDIT: Several people who post here could do to read my tag line below. A lot of people are very leaky.

[xyzdonna]

Oh no you don't, Donna! YOU were the one who wanted to argue politics, keeps injecting it. You asked for it and your getting your butt kicked because of it. Take your lumps, dear!

**************************
Wanker,
I'll concede one point to you. You are the authority on hatred and bitterness. One would conclude that you are quite miserable with your corner on that market.

you have my sympathy. (You will find that in the dictionary between sh#% and syphilis.)

Hi jhowelb,
Politics eh, well how'd you like the outcome of the Iowa caucus? Me I'm ecstatic. No, Hillery didn't win but maybe that's not a bad thing, as Mariss pointed out ("charming velociraptor") she would have been divisive. Huckabee is a great choice for the Repubs. I think the independents will be so fed up with religious conservatives after the debacle that this administration has made of things that Huckabee won't stand a chance. Since any of the Democrats would be orders of magnitude better than any of the repubs who are running I think this bodes well for the country.
Also, lighten up on handlewanker, he's a good guy. I've got alligator hide so I'm immune to your diatribes. Others may be more sensitive.
xyzdonna

[One of Many]

Thanks Ian, Something only an old pro of invective filled posts would have the recognition for? Almost Churchillian but with a hint of grandiose Shakespearian snobbery. Are you here to enlighten us with your wisdom or come out of the alter-ego closet?

It is not the GW/CC is a lie. It is also not that we should avoid taking responsibility for the results of our actions be that war or the environment. What influences the result and what should be done to resolve either has yet to be determined. Waving a white flag on both fronts is just not going to happen around the globe in unison. Who will dictate to the dictators and get them to listen. Who will pay off the evil thugs to prevent proliferation and turn a blind eye and let'm carry on in secret. I sense there are many things of graver concern immediately than making the climate priority over peace. I see everyone in glass houses throwing stones, but nothing substantial to unite us as one on any front. Domination and superior authority seems to be the only view any one side takes to quell opposition. A good example is your demeanor in addressing people as children.

Am I supposed to view you as the authoritarian here?

DC

[jhowelb]

I've got alligator hide..............

hhhmmmmmm........................

yes, well................ahem............humph!

[jhowelb]

1 picture=1000 words

[xyzdonna]

Sometimes I try to give reasoned discussions although I admit Mariss if far better than me at that. I am not even go to try for this one; this claim is absolute, utter rubbish.

EDIT: Several people who post here could do to read my tag line below. A lot of people are very leaky.

Hi Geof,
Glad to see I didn't chase you off the list. I was worried, afraid you might be mad at me, we didn't here from you for a while. Let me lay this one on you. I drive a Toyota Tacoma pick up that gets about 16.5 MPG. (real world numbers, not the sticker ones) If I recall the old Volkswagen diesels used to get around 50MPG. I could just as easily be driving a vehicle like that and triple my mileage. That's practical and doable. We could cut our fuel usage by at least 50%. Of course you'll never get foolks like jhowelb out of their 36' motor homes with cheap gas prices so you need to start taxing the hell out of fuel like the Europeans do. I think you'd be surprise how many 40 and 50 MPG vehicles come on the market.
xyzdonna

[Geof]

.... I think you'd be surprise how many 40 and 50 MPG vehicles come on the market.
xyzdonna

No, I am well aware of vehicles with this type of mileage capability having driven them many times in England; with exceedingly good performance also. They are nearly always diesel which was why they where not available as readily over here; they did not meet the emission requirements. Now that low sulfur diesel is available and engines have been re-designed to reduce the particulate emission diesels are acceptable. Which is why just before the end of last year I traded in a Dodge gasoline V8 for one with the latest Cummins turbocharged diesel and had a year earlier replaced an old vehicle with a 5 cylinder diesel Mercedes van. Maybe these don't get 50 mpg but they do pretty good. Having a smaller vehicle is not practical because these are used for the business. Which incidentally recycles all aluminum and brass chips, all cardboard, has high efficiency gas furnaces installed for heating (I did this a year ago even though I do not own the building) and provides good employment for eighteen employees making a product that is needed by people with a disability not some junky throw away consumer item. I don't need anyone preaching at me thank you.

[xyzdonna]

No, I am well aware of vehicles with this type of mileage capability having driven them many times in England; with exceedingly good performance also. They are nearly always diesel which was why they where not available as readily over here; they did not meet the emission requirements. Now that low sulfur diesel is available and engines have been re-designed to reduce the particulate emission diesels are acceptable. Which is why just before the end of last year I traded in a Dodge gasoline V8 for one with the latest Cummins turbocharged diesel and had a year earlier replaced an old vehicle with a 5 cylinder diesel Mercedes van. Maybe these don't get 50 mpg but they do pretty good. Having a smaller vehicle is not practical because these are used for the business. Which incidentally recycles all aluminum and brass chips, all cardboard, has high efficiency gas furnaces installed for heating (I did this a year ago even though I do not own the building) and provides good employment for eighteen employees making a product that is needed by people with a disability not some junky throw away consumer item. I don't need anyone preaching at me thank you.

Hi Geof,
I'm proud of you Geof! Who would have thought there was a greenie lurking behind those conservative posts of yours. I may yet bring you around. For Mariss and jhowelb I don't hold out much hope. Perhaps you're amenable to coming over from the dark side.
xyzdonna

[jhowelb]

............I drive a Toyota Tacoma pick up that gets about 16.5 MPG. (real world numbers, not the sticker ones)

My motor coach gets 12.5 mpg, is never used to do grocery shopping and is about the only way I can travel with two sizes of oxygen bottles, oxygen separators, wheel chair and all the other gear that so many disabled folks have to carry.

What would you do, Donna? Confine us to nursing homes? Or maybe euthanasia is what you have in mind?

(BTW, around town I drive a CRV which gets considerably better millage than your Toy. Try walking the walk instead of just talking the talk!)

I draw the line at one of those flying shelter halves like the Europeans drive. (Can anyone say Citroen? (LEMON)

[jhowelb]

For Mariss and jhowelb I don't hold out much hope.

Now you have a corner of the subject, I told you that it was my hope to convince you that I would always be right there in your face to oppose you. Good, progress!

Next maybe we can soften your skull a bit!

[Geof]

Hi Geof,
I'm proud of you Geof! Who would have thought there was a greenie lurking behind those conservative posts of yours. I may yet bring you around. For Mariss and jhowelb I don't hold out much hope. Perhaps you're amenable to coming over from the dark side.
xyzdonna

You are sad. I would say that jhowelb has made his contribution to society and Mariss is in a position similar to me; creating employment and, not incidentally, paying taxes to support society. You will not bring me around; either you are simply playing a big game or you are simply to stupid to understand the issues. And I use the word stupid rather than ignorant because you have had plenty of explanations here, and seemingly also from your nuclear physicist friend, that you cannot claim to be unaware of the facts.

[Geof]

.....I draw the line at one of those flying shelter halves like the Europeans drive. (Can anyone say Citroen? (LEMON)

You are not being fair especially picking a Citroen as your example . Some of the European cars, actually many of them, leave domestic US models way behind in performance and handling. I rented a turbo charged diesel Vauxhall a few years ago that could leave a lot of people well behind and some of the newer Skodas are impressive. And I haven't even mentioned Mercedes, BMW, Audi.

[jhowelb]

Well, memories of France in the '60s! I prefer Hoponeze engineering! BONZAI!

(Does stupid encompass "intentionally blind"?)

[Geof]

Well, memories of France in the '60s! I prefer Hoponeze engineering! BONZAI!

(Does stupid encompass "intentionally blind"?)

"intentionally blind" falls into the game playing category.

France in the '60s, what, did you do drive around in a 2CV? I actually saw one a couple of weeks ago when I was on vacation in Norway and Denmark. Now there are even smaller vehicles, smaller even than the bubble cars of the '50s but they are totally impractical outside cities.

[jhowelb]

Actually, I was driving Government Issue Jeep and deuce and a half!
All them little buggers kept getting stuck in the tires!:banana::banana::banana::banana:

(flame2)(flame2)(flame2)(flame2)

[xyzdonna]

You are not being fair especially picking a Citroen as your example . Some of the European cars, actually many of them, leave domestic US models way behind in performance and handling. I rented a turbo charged diesel Vauxhall a few years ago that could leave a lot of people well behind and some of the newer Skodas are impressive. And I haven't even mentioned Mercedes, BMW, Audi.

Hi Geof,
I've owned an MG midget, an MGA, and spouse has had a Triumph motorcycle. Of all the above the Triumph was the best. A friend had a Jaguar. All these vehicles were victims of the abominable Lucas electrics. I don't think anything out of Europe compares with Ford motor vehicles. Most European stuff is on a par with General Motors, fairly low quality. And nothing from the US compares with the Jap stuff, especially Toyota and Honda.

Geof: You will not bring me around; either you are simply playing a big game or you are simply to stupid to understand the issues. And I use the word stupid rather than ignorant because you have had plenty of explanations here, and seemingly also from your nuclear physicist friend, that you cannot claim to be unaware of the facts.

Me: Your explanations don't wash. I've been doing more research, alternative fuels can and will work. Bandying about a little math using the wrong assumptions is what doesn't work. That and the conservative mindset. If you start with flawed assumptions your conclusions will be invalid. Conservatives are especially good at this. It's their stock in trade.

xyzdonna

[Shotout]

What would you do, Donna? Confine us to nursing homes? Or maybe euthanasia is what you have in mind?

euthanasia? Waste valuable arable land on cemeteries that could support carbon friendly trees, or worse cremation! What about all the carbon your sequestering?!? No, no, no, it would just go up in smoke!

Sorry but I couldn't resist

[jhowelb]

Burning anything releases carbon, anything alive or that ever has been alive is based on carbon. Alternative equates to more expensive, not less polution.

Pure and simple it is a shell game to enslave the "ignorant masses" to a new dictator.

Still politics and still NO SALE!!!

[jhowelb]

HEEE, HEEEE, HEEEE!!!!!!!

:bat::bat::bat::bat::bat::bat::bat::bat::bat:

The problem with caressing the jewels of the crown before the coronation is that it's really embarrassing when it turns out that the coronation goes to someone else.

Clinton's invincibility has turned into inadequacy. She stumbled from Almighty to also-ran.

The only question that remains now is whether she will be able to recover enough to go on.

[xyzdonna]

Burning anything releases carbon, anything alive or that ever has been alive is based on carbon. Alternative equates to more expensive, not less polution.

Pure and simple it is a shell game to enslave the "ignorant masses" to a new dictator.

Still politics and still NO SALE!!!

Hi jhowelb,
Yes but if you first remove the carbon from the air to make the fuel, then the resultant is called "carbon neutral", because your putting back into the air what you first took out. What should be done is to increase taxes on petroleum gasoline in increments such that it goes up in cost to about $5.00 / gal over a period of time. Then use the taxes to subsidize alternative fuels. This will be good for the environment, good for the economy. We're funding terrorism with our petro dollars. Had this moronic administration implemented an energy policy instead of a war we'd be well on our way to petroleum independence. If Gore had gotten in we'd have been so much better off. Fuel is going to get more expensive, get used to that. At some point alternatives will be the cheaper way to go. In spite of what the scientists and engineers on this list say it will be done and it will work.
xyzdonna