[ihavenofish]

so i emailed 2 canadian foundries. one who does meehanite, another gray iron.

we'll see what each comes back with.

[ihavenofish]

so heres our theoretical base casting. critical milled surfaces are in blue.

the channel in the centre is designed to handle ball screws up to 25mm. specifically, it can use the 25mm screws available on ebay if the builder wanted the cheap and cheerful approach.

the finished casting weighs 63lbs, and has a 400mm x 300mm footprint which means it can be mounted to an inexpensive shop grade granite surface plate for additional mass. all critical surfaces after the bottom is leveled could be easily and acurately machined in one setup on a universal manual mill with at least 10" of cross travel and a 90 degree swivel head. key drilling and tapping (not in image) could be handled in the same setup as well.

fully supprted Y travel would be 200mm, or shy of 8". with a nema 23 motor direct driving the axis from the front, you could overtravel the ways to about 9" with no modifications. larger motors could still be used with overtravel by offsetting the mount, or using a belt drive.

the current intent for the drive mechanism would be a direct drive nema 23 stepper or servo, with a couplin inside the base casting, and the sopport angular contact bearings at the back of the machine, under the column. this is the cheapest and easiest to construct, however no really the easiest for maintenece, as access to both the coupling and bearings is underneath the base.

this isnt such a bad start, this casting would cost about $200 on the high side raw based on the $3.15 per pound figure. stress releaved, machined, and marked up for retail, its reasonable to see this sell for $600. "high", but not off target in a mill that should retail in the $6000 to $10000 segment.

ill get the column ready next.

[Geof]

so i emailed 2 canadian foundries. one who does meehanite, another gray iron.

we'll see what each comes back with.

If my experience contacting foundries is any guide....nothing.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Try going to mfg.com, and putting out an RFQ. It's free, and I've had good luck there.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Jeff-Birt]

This has been quite an amusing thread. Anybody wonder why all the industries mentioned have just about dried up in north America? Well, you can thank your favorite politician and the EPA (and it Canadian equivalent) and any other government bodies responsible for regulating things to make us safer, healthier, blah, blah, blah. And let's not even get into how overpowering some unions are. Eventually companies get tired of putting up with all the BS and move elsewhere.

Foundries are one type of business that the EPA has just about regulated out of existence in the US, another is PCB making. Ever notice how all the quickie PCB places are even in China now? Funny how in our effort to be 'green' we have driven these type of businesses to countries with almost no environmental regulations.

I don't think cheap labor is the entire reason for moving overseas either. I used to work for a company that that the last US manufacturer of burglar and fire alarm systems. The cost of labor in the finished product was less than 4%, most of the cost was in parts, 90% of which already came from a foreign land.

I have a relative who recently got laid off a job he has been at about 30 years. They are moving the shop to Mexico. He happened to be the shops union steward. I remember one story he told where a missing air compressor was found in an employees garage. Of course the guy claims he had no idea how it got there! In the end they could not fire him due to their union contract. What BS...

I wish everyone would go out and start a small business. It is a real eye opener. There is absolutely no way even a small guy can know about and comply with every silly, petty rule that some politician dreamed up. In fact I would speculate that you won't even be able to find a local official, whose job it is to enforce said regulations, who is knowledgeable enough to even explain the regulation to you in the first place.

Here is a good example. When you have a job you just pick up your paycheck and ***** about the taxes taken out. Do you know that your employer is also footing another half of those taxes? Most people don't know and don't care. If you have a full time job your employer is paying about 30% more to cover taxes and benefits than what you are being paid (plus you are also paying a hefty chunk of your paycheck out to taxes.)

And as a business owner or self employed person you get the pleasure of paying quarterly tax 'estimates'. So you have to guess at what you will wind up owing in taxes at years end, and pay it in a quarter at a time. What happens if you have a really gangbusters quarter and one that is not so hot? Well, you have underestimated one quarter and overestimated another. At the end of the year you will probably come out even, but you will still be fined for that one quarter that you underestimated!!!

If you want to complain about entire industries moving overseas than you have to place the blame where it belongs - on over regulation of our entire lives by politicians are after nothing more than protecting their cushy jobs.

Personally I'm all for getting any government out of my daily life, I sure don't want some federal bureaucrat having any say in MY health-care choices. More regulations, tariffs, import taxes,etc won't fix the problem; they will just make it worse.

[ihavenofish]

If you want to complain about entire industries moving overseas than you have to place the blame where it belongs - on over regulation of our entire lives by politicians are after nothing more than protecting their cushy jobs.

thats mostly why ive steered this thread off in a different direction. whining about how somone else screwed up your life, be it your government, greedy corporations, or another countrys government, doesnt actually do anything to fix the problem.

if you deamand a usa made machine... youll just have to make one youre self!

so lets change the subject to real life now.

if you are legitimately in the market for an "X3 class" machine - this includes retrofitting the weiss wmd20/25, wabeco, opti bf20, the lathermaster 25, busybee ct129, and premade solutions like the sieg kx3, novakon nm135, smithy 622, syil x4, syil bf20 heres is the question:

all these machines sit roughly at $5000-$6000 for a complete, running solution, and about $1200 for the bare manual machines for the purpose of conversion. how much MORE would you pay for a BETTER quality, more feature complete US/canadian made machine in this class? be honest, not patriotic.

on castings, we will likely be at a $2000+ pricing disadvantage, however the design by nature will save alot of money over conversion at both the DIY level and turnkey levels. its hard to say what the final trade off will be yet.

[ihavenofish]

If my experience contacting foundries is any guide....nothing.

well, thats where were at this afternoon, haha. ill give em a few days, then phone.

[escott76]

This has been quite an amusing thread. Anybody wonder why all the industries mentioned have just about dried up in north America? Well, you can thank your favorite politician and the EPA (and it Canadian equivalent) and any other government bodies responsible for regulating things to make us safer, healthier, blah, blah, blah. And let's not even get into how overpowering some unions are. Eventually companies get tired of putting up with all the BS and move elsewhere.

Foundries are one type of business that the EPA has just about regulated out of existence in the US, another is PCB making. Ever notice how all the quickie PCB places are even in China now? Funny how in our effort to be 'green' we have driven these type of businesses to countries with almost no environmental regulations.

I don't think cheap labor is the entire reason for moving overseas either. I used to work for a company that that the last US manufacturer of burglar and fire alarm systems. The cost of labor in the finished product was less than 4%, most of the cost was in parts, 90% of which already came from a foreign land.

I have a relative who recently got laid off a job he has been at about 30 years. They are moving the shop to Mexico. He happened to be the shops union steward. I remember one story he told where a missing air compressor was found in an employees garage. Of course the guy claims he had no idea how it got there! In the end they could not fire him due to their union contract. What BS...

I wish everyone would go out and start a small business. It is a real eye opener. There is absolutely no way even a small guy can know about and comply with every silly, petty rule that some politician dreamed up. In fact I would speculate that you won't even be able to find a local official, whose job it is to enforce said regulations, who is knowledgeable enough to even explain the regulation to you in the first place.

Here is a good example. When you have a job you just pick up your paycheck and ***** about the taxes taken out. Do you know that your employer is also footing another half of those taxes? Most people don't know and don't care. If you have a full time job your employer is paying about 30% more to cover taxes and benefits than what you are being paid (plus you are also paying a hefty chunk of your paycheck out to taxes.)

And as a business owner or self employed person you get the pleasure of paying quarterly tax 'estimates'. So you have to guess at what you will wind up owing in taxes at years end, and pay it in a quarter at a time. What happens if you have a really gangbusters quarter and one that is not so hot? Well, you have underestimated one quarter and overestimated another. At the end of the year you will probably come out even, but you will still be fined for that one quarter that you underestimated!!!

If you want to complain about entire industries moving overseas than you have to place the blame where it belongs - on over regulation of our entire lives by politicians are after nothing more than protecting their cushy jobs.

Personally I'm all for getting any government out of my daily life, I sure don't want some federal bureaucrat having any say in MY health-care choices. More regulations, tariffs, import taxes,etc won't fix the problem; they will just make it worse.

Summed up thusly "It's someone else's fault".... You don't like it, work for change. Work to change the law, work to educate people on what they are doing, work to actually create a product worth buying. There ARE people out there who stay on the right side of the law and make money. They also aren't the ones blaming their problems on someone else.
The problem is that everyone in America forgot what it was like to work for a living, and instead demands that we get the cheapest goods, and make the most money for the least work. Same thing with our food. The people that made this country great didn't insist on a cushy office job where they make a bunch of money with a health plan and yearly bonuses. They worked through much greater hardships than a couple of laws governing their behavior.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

This sums it up nicely: http://tinyurl.com/mm7axm

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I continue to be amazed at how many people on these forums will complain about poor quality, or lousy support, but whenever they buy, they wait for a 20% off coupon, and buy from Harbor Freight, rather than paying an extra $200 and going to Grizzly, or one of the other suppliers that has a clue about quality and customer support. Of course, when they need parts for that H-F machine, to replace the ones that broke in transit, and they find they *can't* get replacements for from H-F, or they can but it'll take six months, *then* they'll go to Grizzly, and complain when they're asked for their machines S/N, to prove it's a Grizzly machine. This mentality drives the quality vendors out of business in the long run, yet people just don't see it. They want it cheap, and good, and with good support. It's like the old saying: Good, cheap, fast. Pick any two.

Regards,
Ray L.

[heilcnc]

I do aggree with what you are saying the main reason i started this thread was i
learned the machinist trade from my dad who is a world war 2 vet who is still alive
he was a tool maker till he retired and he tells me how we won the war with our
manufacturing and it bothers him the state of things now and yes i'am not a good
writer that was not a strong point in school!! i'am realy happy to see someone here
with maybe north american castings lets see more like blueprints

[Hirudin]

I'm glad I don't live down wind from a foundry.

Personally, I'd rather pay more and have an environment worth living in than the other way around.

Give me cheap **** or give me death (by lead poisoning).

[Jeff-Birt]

Summed up thusly "It's someone else's fault".... You don't like it, work for change.

I fail to see how what I said was summed up by 'someone else's fault'. I am never one to blame anyone else for problems of my own doing. My post was merely a factual statement about the state of American industry, concluding in the realization that more regulations were not the answer. Wishing for 'American made' anything is useless when we keep voting in the same types of folks into office.

As for doing something about it I actually am, I have started my own company this past year that sells mostly American made products. Hence my statement about wishing everyone else would have a similar experience. I also do something about about it in the way I vote. 'Hoping for change' gets you the mess we have now.

Personally, I'd rather pay more and have an environment worth living in than the other way around.

But that is not what happens. We drive all the 'evil' polluting business to other countries that have no regulations. How does that make things better? Nobody ever want to live near a foundry or a slaughter house or a stinky farm, but we all want the products they produce...

[Mariss Freimanis]

The first (#1) and last (#52) posts are really funny when put together.:-)

heilcnc: I WANT A MADE IN THE USA MACHINE!!
Hirudin: BUT I DON'T WANT IT BUILT IN THE USA!!

Mariss

[ihavenofish]

I do aggree with what you are saying the main reason i started this thread was i
learned the machinist trade from my dad who is a world war 2 vet who is still alive
he was a tool maker till he retired and he tells me how we won the war with our
manufacturing and it bothers him the state of things now and yes i'am not a good
writer that was not a strong point in school!! i'am realy happy to see someone here
with maybe north american castings lets see more like blueprints

no blueprints. not yet anyhow. im not going to give out any critical information only to have the result be noone willing to pay up.

ill just show some pictures as i go, and report on costs.

call it a social experiment




80lbs for the column.. though i might make it longer to get more z clearance, bringing the weight to about 90lbs. thats $285 raw, and likely $650 retail machined for those keeping tabs. the table can be assumed to cost about the same, and the saddles about that for the pair. with the head, nuts, bold and accessories, youre over $3000 and we still havent got a spindle. note, this is not a cnc mill yet, this is just frame castings! i think were still safe for a sub $10000 turnkey machine with all the trimmings however, and i am of course using the worst case numbers for my math until i get actual quotes.

for anyone getting a bit concerned this is high priced for an x3 class machine, ill have to mention that in terms of rigidity, strength and features, this design is actually geared to be "better than a tormach", however in a slightly more hobby managable format. i think ive also gone past my original mass expectations. the final machine may end up closer to 400lbs given the base and column alone are 150.

[fretsman]

You guys are a riot.

We all see what each other buys around here and then we're all going to preach "buy american"?

[ihavenofish]

You guys are a riot.

We all see what each other buys around here and then we're all going to preach "buy american"?

i personally just want a machine better suited to my needs. thats the purpose of what i am designing. i just thought it would be fun to inject a bit of the real world into the buy american dogma.

who knows, maybe we'll prove us made hobby mill sare viable... or maybe not.

[fretsman]

i personally just want a machine better suited to my needs. thats the purpose of what i am designing. i just thought it would be fun to inject a bit of the real world into the buy american dogma.

who knows, maybe we'll prove us made hobby mill sare viable... or maybe not.

Well done

[Hirudin]

Hmmm... I hardly think that's a rational interpretation of what I wrote Mariss Freimanis.

My point was, environmental regulations actually do contribute to a more healthy society.

Also, although I didn't come close to writing my comment in all caps I do agree this thread could use some more capital letters, 'specially at the beginnings of sentences.

Jeff-Birt, I don't subscribe to the philosophy of "everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I?" That is an attitude that leads nowhere.

[ihavenofish]

Hmmm... I hardly think that's a rational interpretation of what I wrote Maris.

My point was, environmental regulations actually do contribute to a more healthy society.

Also, although I didn't come close to writing my comment in all caps (like your misquote) I do agree this thread could use some more capital letters, 'specially at the beginnings of sentences.

im anti capitalist. i believe every letter is equal.