I kinda know how it works. Is it costy to do? I know about mold dies. I work in a mold **** and have other people that could help me... But does it work the same way...? anybody know?
I kinda know how it works. Is it costy to do? I know about mold dies. I work in a mold **** and have other people that could help me... But does it work the same way...? anybody know?
Actually it is not like molds. there are several types of dies for forming and cutting anf they act quite differently.
1) is a simple trim die that blanks out a sheatmetal shape.
2) is a simple form die that bends the metal with very little drawing of the metal
3) is a draw die, that actually gets all the metal moving over a mandrel or shaped form.
4) is the most complicated. a progresive die where the triming starts at one end and has multiple stations where the web of metal is moved forward for multple trim, forming or drawing operations.
this is an example of a simple progressive die web.
is an example of a lower half of a progressive die that appears to make a small part that contains trim, form and post form trim sections.
thanks a lot.. yea I make those support pillars and that a block at my job now.. I was just curious on how different they are.... hmmm
here is a good example of a progressive draw die web. These are kind of an art, because the quality of the steel can vary one must make provision for adjusting the draw pressure. Note the wrinkes on the draw, generally not a good sign. This one looks like it creates quite a bit of waste as well.
Ok.. I dont want anything big and spectacular. I just want to be able to stamp out a "bracket" out of mild steel that is about 4" x 2" with a few radii on the corners and a few holes in the middle. Any idea on how I could do this?
http://www.aa-mfg.com/pdshop/shop/item.asp?itemid=807
things like this...
A single die with the shape you need. the clearance between the upper and lower is dictated by the material thickness as is the tonnage needed to balnk the material. You want to make a provision for spliting the scrap as well so it is easier to handle.
For low run die, water hard tool steel and flame hardening with a torch would be adequate.
the thickness is about 1/4"....Originally Posted by DieGuy
How can I learn more about making dies?
Go talk to a local stamping house. They may be able to offer some examples.
Scott
Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.
The closet place I know about is sun microstamp and I know they aren't going to be cheap but anyway I want to learn how to make the dies myself...
Good luck - let us know what you end up with.
Scott
Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.
Investing in a die for a few parts is not going to be cost effective at all. I bet the break even point is going to be several hundred parts. A die that stamps 1/4 in plate is going to need to be very rugged, will need either sheared blanks or strip, and a press with plenty of tonnage. Although you can add shear to a die to help the tonnage load it only goes just so far.
A good place to start is the machinery's handbook for tonnage estimates.
Amazon has several books explaining die design start @ around $20 each. You will need to learn about stripper plates, spring pocketing, strip giudes and die clearance to produce break in the steel.
There is a big difference in the cost to produce a low run die and a longer life die. For the type of part you gave as example, minimum machine shop equipment can be considered a milling machine, drill press, band saw, power die filer, and surface grinder. A rotary table for the base radius would be nice. Because the design can be done with a single operation die a small dieset can be used to keep the upper and lower halves aligned, A 2 post bushing type should be OK like this one. http://cgi.ebay.com/Metal-Stamping-D...QQcmdZViewItem
For tighter tolerance work a jig borer and jig grinder is really nice to have. For the kind of parts you want to blank those are not really necessary.
For a part that is 3" X 6" you are going to need a piece of tools steel 3" X6"X2" plus one that is about 2 inches bigger on all sides, so say 7"X10"X2",a pieces of smaller tool steel to use as scrap chopper. A piece of CRS 7"X10"X1 for a stripper, a set of springs to drive the stripper, some CRS for blank guides or strip guides, some stripper pins to oil brake the part of the die surface with springs for those. If you cost out the tools steel & heat treat I think you will be in for a few hundred right there. A used die set big enough is probably $100 or so.
Time to build should just be a few days for a diemaker, couple hours to square mill the raw material and grind it square, a couple hours to lay it out, half a day in the mill for the punch and a day in the mill for the die. Half a day to drill the holes needed and then off to heat treat. Then while at heat treat, a day to make the stripper, Band saw & mill work. the material guides and cut and prep the stripper pins, make some stop blocks. Back from heat treat, half a day to grind it all top and bottom. and maybe grind the punch some to get the clearance right. A day to mount it all in the dies set, check the clearances and dowel the peices in place on the die shoe, drill all the spring holes, etc, Then mount all the other goodies to get it ready on the bench for the first press pass. Then an hour of 2 mounting in the press, and getting the press adjusted. All goes as planned you have a die. If not back to the bench.
You might want to consider someone with a "Strippit" or "Amada" style CNC punch press if edge finish is not a concern. They "nibble" the profile and punch the holes quite cleanly. If you are lucky, you will not even be hit with much of a tooling charge. 1/4 inch is a little heavy for nibbling, but do-able. We have a 20 year old Strippit FC-750 machine running 10 ga. stuff all the time, just a PITA to program.
Just my 2 cents.
What you would be after there is to see how things are done. Ask for a tour, gain some insight. Ask questions.Originally Posted by MBG
Chances are that ad part example you posted was either laser or plasma cut. Not much, beside high production volumes would be stamped out of 1/4" steel. More so for complex shapes than basic squares and circles.
Just the outside periphery of a 4x2" square part is going to be about 7 tons per linear inch. That alone is about 84 tons for your part. The holes may be punched later in another operation to make it cheap. Doing the holes in the same stroke, by setting them at different heights in the die will complicate the works.
If you have the machines and skills available to make the dies, access to the die shoe, heat treat, grinding, or wire cut EDM and a press capacity capable of the tonnage. Then I would go for the learning experience if anything else. Even having the die fail is part of the experience. You will find out what not to do next time.
You could do it on the cheap and see where the market takes your product. Assuming no one else already offers these wares. You making the die verses paying someone will put the payoff in a different light. Production firms cannot work this way of course. It is still best to have a proven plan from someone in the field.
DC
How many are you making?
I'd be very surprised to see stamping or nibbling come anywhere near the cost of laser, or even waterjet. I would expect the latter two to be much cheaper unless you are talking huge quantaties.
-Jeff
I agree - laser cut them for lower volumes. The hard part is volumes between 1K-10K - but even in these volumes, I think laser cutting or even plasma cutting would be the most economical way to go for this part.
I can't see stamping being economical for such a shape until you hit the 20K+ mark. Otherwise, tool amortization is going to add too much to the cost of the part to be of any benefit to your bottom line.
The number of parts and the complexity of the part you want to make should dictate the process. For high volumes (50,000) - use the dedicated tooling/processes such as stamping. For lower volumes, the flexible processes such as CNC (laser cutting, plasma cutting, even machining) are the way to go.
Scott
Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.
I see.. well it all depends on how many i'm going to sell.....
for this one I think plasma or water jetting is the answer. For 100-200 pieces it is the most cost effective. You might be able to recover your toooling cost some where below 20K parts with a real sharp pencil, ie single stage, smart design, your personal discounted labor , stc.
No laser, DieGuy?
I think laser is less than water jet - it is definately faster..... Is there a reason you don't mention laser?
Sorry for the hijack...
Scott
Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.