[azam1959]

Hi,

Starting a new thread for the hardware issue I am facing right now. Hope this thread will help me in fixing oil leak issue and will also help folks in the future with similar issue.

I do have Novakon Torous Pro mill for couple of months and using wood to practice cnc/milling and guess am ready to move to metal as soon as oil leak issue is resolved and I can use the coolant.

Is the issue real or am I too picky. I know machines do have some oil. I cleaned the machine pretty good about 4 days ago and in four days I do have enough oil on the tray to soak at least four paper towels. Beside the tray, I also cleaned all the visible oil joints and did not see any joint with excessive oil on it. Also cleaned all the ways (hope this is the correct terminology).

Pump lever do take some force coming down but it does go back very very quickly. I did get some input from other thread which will require me to take apart the pump. First step would be to loose nuts for two lines on two sides .... so the first question ... will oil just come out if I loose line nuts and take apart the oil lines? plan is to take the pump out, empty it and then work on input from other thread on screen, gasket, rubber ring, spring etc.

Novakon is been good to me during machine set up and I am in touch with them on this issue. Novakon advised me to use heavier oil, which did not help. Hope to hear from them after the break.

Happy holidays.

Cheers

[holbieone]

is it way oil or gear box oil


if it's way oil the more the better , just before the point of wasting it

i would not worry about getting oil in your coolant

just don't let it cover the top of the coolant and sit for weeks , it will start to stink

[azam1959]

Wasting should not be an issue, in the most rosy scenario mill will be used for half an hour couple of time during the week. I can just add some oil in the reservoir before each session. coolant stinking may be an issue but I should be able to remove the oil from coolant top.

I like what I hear but I did not get same input in other thread; will prefer to spend time on modeling instead of fixing the pump. I will just wait to hear from one or two other folks before moving along.

thank you very much holbieone.

is it way oil or gear box oil


if it's way oil the more the better , just before the point of wasting it

i would not worry about getting oil in your coolant

just don't let it cover the top of the coolant and sit for weeks , it will start to stink

[mactec54]

azam1959

May be no leak at all, how often are you pulling the lube lever, for your small amount of machining, once a month is most likely enough

I would say you are just over oiling the machine, & you should be using vactra #2

There is nothing wrong with the pump if the oil is coming out of all the slide joints ballscrew etc, the oil will end up in the chip tray that is what it should do

[azam1959]

Mectec54,
Thanks for the msg. Initially, I was pulling the lever twice per session as per directions in users manual latter I switched to pulling lever once a week. I was worried about oil not going to right place because lever is coming up too quickly but I did check joints after pulling the lever and I think I did notice oil at all the joints. There are instances where I did not pull the lever for few weeks in a row but oil continue to leak on the tray and I deducted that leakage is independent of pulling the lever. I did not pull the lever since last clean up few days ago and still see oil on the tray.

As for oil, I used ways oil and then I used regular motor oil. I will look for vactra #2.

I really do not want to disassemble pump if I do not have to. Messages from folks I do trust and respect do suggest to move along and enjoy cnc milling.

Cheers

azam1959

May be no leak at all, how often are you pulling the lube lever, for your small amount of machining, once a month is most likely enough

I would say you are just over oiling the machine, & you should be using vactra #2

There is nothing wrong with the pump if the oil is coming out of all the slide joints ballscrew etc, the oil will end up in the chip tray that is what it should do

[neilw20]

The lube oil?
I've dismantled one of those oilers and the seat the ball seals on was made with a drill, and the diameter was way oversize, and the seat a heap of bumps like a drill often makes.
You need to form new seats for the spring loaded balls. The pump I repaired has not leaked one drip since.

There is a springloaded ball (or should be) to stop drain back into the pump.
If there are no air leaks the exit ends shouldn't weep oil.

Is the lamp holder a bit saggy?
Also here...
One reason why I chose the Novakon CNC machine instead of the Tormach CNC machine - Page 3 - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net!

[mactec54]

azam1959

Do not use the motor oil it is not designed for machine use

A simple test to see if the pump is leaking, mark the level of the oil in the reservoir, & see if the oil level drops over time, if it does not drop any, then the pump is not leaking, you are just over oiling

[azam1959]

Mectec54,
This was the first test I did before contacting Novakon and I do have the leak. Question is how much leak is worth the time to fix the reservoir. If I do not use reservoir oil, my rough guestimate is one full reservoir will leak in about 4 weeks. Obviously I do not want to open the reservoir but guess writing is on the wall.

Neil20,
I do not understand what you mean by seat but I am sure I will get it once I disassemble the reservoir. Is there any document or web page which explain pump's internal assembly/operation? If I take out two connections on the side to take off the pump from mill, will oil just get out of these connections? Important for me ... if I screw-up the pump during repair, are these pumps easy to get? connections on the pump are standards?

Thanks

azam1959

Do not use the motor oil it is not designed for machine use

A simple test to see if the pump is leaking, mark the level of the oil in the reservoir, & see if the oil level drops over time, if it does not drop any, then the pump is not leaking, you are just over oiling

[neilw20]

If you take off the pipes, oil SHOULDN'T run out, more than a drip, but it surely will.
Once you have the pipes off remove from the machine.
If the outlets keep leaking after you remove the pipes, put them back, unbolt from the machine, put a tray underneath and remove the pipes.

If there is no continuous leakage from the pipes, then no probably is no need to remove from the machine.

The pipe on each side has it own respective spring loaded ball.
The idea is, that one the pump has pushed out some oil, oil can not run back into the pump.
There is a third ball valve that oil into the piston on the return stroke.
Remove it, fiddle with it with some oil. You will soon figure out what it should do.

Not rocket science, but the ball seat should have been at least good enough to seal from the spring pushing on the ball.

I removed the seats and forced a ball into the seats to form them properly.
If I remember correctly it is all removed from the bottom where the lever is, so empty it first or expect a bit of a mess.

Also, once all the pipes are filled, and the spring loaded balls seal the start of the tubes, no oil can leak out the machine end,
unless other joints in the system leak, and air can get in.
Any leak will allow air in, and some small leakage will occur until the tube drains.

[azam1959]

thanks my friend. have enough info now ... will be back with progress report in few days.

regards

If you take off the pipes, oil SHOULDN'T run out, more than a drip, but it surely will.
Once you have the pipes off remove from the machine.
If the outlets keep leaking after you remove the pipes, put them back, unbolt from the machine, put a tray underneath and remove the pipes.

If there is no continuous leakage from the pipes, then no probably is no need to remove from the machine.

The pipe on each side has it own respective spring loaded ball.
The idea is, that one the pump has pushed out some oil, oil can not run back into the pump.
There is a third ball valve that oil into the piston on the return stroke.
Remove it, fiddle with it with some oil. You will soon figure out what it should do.

Not rocket science, but the ball seat should have been at least good enough to seal from the spring pushing on the ball.

I removed the seats and forced a ball into the seats to form them properly.
If I remember correctly it is all removed from the bottom where the lever is, so empty it first or expect a bit of a mess.

Also, once all the pipes are filled, and the spring loaded balls seal the start of the tubes, no oil can leak out the machine end,
unless other joints in the system leak, and air can get in.
Any leak will allow air in, and some small leakage will occur until the tube drains.

[azam1959]

Based on inputs, going slow to make sure that we do have correct diagnosis before fixing the (potential) issue. First step, took both the connections out and really cleaned pump side of the connection. Based on where I am finding the oil, I do expect to see oil drops forming on the left connection soon. Next step will depend on the results of step 1.



Edit: did not take too long to get oil drop on the left connection. cleaned it up and also cleaned connection threads. Will wait little longer before disassembling the pump, just want to make sure that right connection is not leaking and I need to concentrate only on the left side.

thanks my friend. have enough info now ... will be back with progress report in few days.

regards

[mactec54]

azam1959

I don't think you need to worry about the right one, even if it did leak, I think the oil would have a hard time going up, without being pushed by the pump, the oil is not going to travel up from the pump by itself

[azam1959]

You are right Mectec54, during oil line inspection, I noticed that right connection have a splitter next to z axis motor and from there it goes to various joints and most of them are above the pump level. I was hoping to have a good connection to know how normal connection look like in the pump. Unfortunately right connection is also leaking. Will wait for another day with more fuel to disassemble the pump. Your message do explain the location of oil spill.

Regards,

azam1959

I don't think you need to worry about the right one, even if it did leak, I think the oil would have a hard time going up, without being pushed by the pump, the oil is not going to travel up from the pump by itself

[neilw20]

You need to worry about an uphill leak.
It will drain back from the upper connections and the tube will empty.
When you pull the lever the upper areas won't get enough oil.
Looking at the picture, that is exactly the unit I repaired.
It all comes out through the bottom.

[azam1959]

Neilw20,

Thanks.

Finally herd from Novakon in pm and they advised me to move the pump at a lower position but they are also willing to exchange the pump unit. I am opting for the replacement. I will close the loop with an update post after switching the unit.

Want to thank for all the help and support.

Regards,

You need to worry about an uphill leak.
It will drain back from the upper connections and the tube will empty.
When you pull the lever the upper areas won't get enough oil.
Looking at the picture, that is exactly the unit I repaired.
It all comes out through the bottom.

[neilw20]

Lower position is just silly.
Put oil in the new one before hooking it up. If ANY oil comes out without pulling the lever, and it should stop after lever is operated, then reject it.
I found the force to operate it meant that it need to be clamped or put in a vice to test it.
Demand it be tested with oil, for 24 hours, leak free, no pipes fitted, before they send it, then you will get a good one and only be shipped once.
If I ever get to dismantle another one I will take some photos.

[azam1959]

Thanks.
Test is pretty simple and will execute 24 hr oil test before installing the unit. Novakon is reading and I am sure I will not be posting pump pictures any more.

Lower position is just silly.
Put oil in the new one before hooking it up. If ANY oil comes out without pulling the lever, and it should stop after lever is operated, then reject it.
I found the force to operate it meant that it need to be clamped or put in a vice to test it.
Demand it be tested with oil, for 24 hours, leak free, no pipes fitted, before they send it, then you will get a good one and only be shipped once.
If I ever get to dismantle another one I will take some photos.

[Novakon]

Technical overview:

We have been looking at this problem in depth for awhile. The Torus PRO factory has been involved in evaluating the problem and providing possible reasons for the leak as well. While the numbers of reported occurrences that are similar to this are very few, it did occur in this situation and at least in one other situation we are aware of.

The oil dispersion system used in the Torus PRO is misunderstood. The oil pump is designed to pressurize the oil lines when the handle is pulled. When the pump is in the static position, it does not mean that oil cannot bypass the seals inside the pump. The components that prevent continuous flow are the flow valves that are used throughout the distribution system. Each line radiating from the oil port has a flow valve that prevents flow of oil until sufficient pressure is applied to allow the oil to evenly flow between all the multiple ports. If any one of the valves is leaking, this will cause this situation.

We do suggest finding the line that is seeping oil and replace the flow valves that are associated. In this situation, our customer has difficulty in replacing the suspected flow valves so the only prudent procedure is to place the pump to a lower position. This was already accomplished by one other customer and has solved his problem. There is no reason to believe this will not fix this problem. As it stands, we are looking at relocating the pump to a lower position that is more accessible from the front of the mill. The current position of the pump is not an easy location to reach to pull the handle.

We will exchange the oil pump, but we don't believe it will solve the problem. The solution is to replace the flow valves. The next best solution would be to relocate the pump to a more strategic location if the flow valves cannot be changed.

We hope this clarifies the operation of the oiling system . While it may seem easy on the surface, the solution is more complex and needed more evaluation before a recommendation could be offered.

Regards,
Novakon Team

P.S. This assumes of course that there is no leak due to a broken oil line or an improper seal from a furrel in a connector.

[azam1959]

Novakon Team,
Thank you very much for the response.

I thought replacing the pump unit will also replace faulty flow valve ... please do not send anything before we are able to talk.

Technical overview:

We have been looking at this problem in depth for awhile. The Torus PRO factory has been involved in evaluating the problem and providing possible reasons for the leak as well. While the numbers of reported occurrences that are similar to this are very few, it did occur in this situation and at least in one other situation we are aware of.

The oil dispersion system used in the Torus PRO is misunderstood. The oil pump is designed to pressurize the oil lines when the handle is pulled. When the pump is in the static position, it does not mean that oil cannot bypass the seals inside the pump. The components that prevent continuous flow are the flow valves that are used throughout the distribution system. Each line radiating from the oil port has a flow valve that prevents flow of oil until sufficient pressure is applied to allow the oil to evenly flow between all the multiple ports. If any one of the valves is leaking, this will cause this situation.

We do suggest finding the line that is seeping oil and replace the flow valves that are associated. In this situation, our customer has difficulty in replacing the suspected flow valves so the only prudent procedure is to place the pump to a lower position. This was already accomplished by one other customer and has solved his problem. There is no reason to believe this will not fix this problem. As it stands, we are looking at relocating the pump to a lower position that is more accessible from the front of the mill. The current position of the pump is not an easy location to reach to pull the handle.

We will exchange the oil pump, but we don't believe it will solve the problem. The solution is to replace the flow valves. The next best solution would be to relocate the pump to a more strategic location if the flow valves cannot be changed.

We hope this clarifies the operation of the oiling system . While it may seem easy on the surface, the solution is more complex and needed more evaluation before a recommendation could be offered.

Regards,
Novakon Team

P.S. This assumes of course that there is no leak due to a broken oil line or an improper seal from a furrel in a connector.

[azam1959]

update: received the pump last Friday and it is holding up pretty good. Satisfied with the new pump and sent back the old pump yesterday. Issue is resolved to my satisfaction.

Thanks for all the help and advise from the community members.
Thanks Novakon.

Novakon Team,
Thank you very much for the response.

I thought replacing the pump unit will also replace faulty flow valve ... please do not send anything before we are able to talk.