[DareBee]

No way. i think who ever wrote the listing is wrong. look at the hole size in the spindle, and the ATC pockets. I'm betting its a CT30. Would be WAAAY more work to modify a R8 than to simply install a CT spindle.

It definitely appears this way. The opening looks large and there are drive dogs.

[vmax549]

It uses a special CT/R8 tool holder. Basically a CT30 holder reground to R8 taper.

It also uses a gripper system like most larger machines.

Modern VMC in mini form. Perfect in many ways.

Just a thought, (;-) TP

[wizard]

No way. i think who ever wrote the listing is wrong. look at the hole size in the spindle, and the ATC pockets. I'm betting its a CT30. Would be WAAAY more work to modify a R8 than to simply install a CT spindle.

I'm not sure what that spindle is but I thought I saw someplace that it was a modified R8. The use of a custom taper would be interesting though, I would imagine the reason to do so would be cost control. If one has access to a CNC lathe it should't be a huge deal as you can DIY the too holders.

As a side note, after sometime searching for his web site I finally found it: Web. FADEC is an unfortunate name in the web world because searches for it turn up thousands of sites for FADEC as in Full Authority Digital Engine Control. In any event it is stated that the spindle has an R8 taper however form the photos and so forth it doesn't appear to be a standard nose outside of the bore. Frankly I don't see this as a problem. I do wonder about the stiffness of the tool holder and what its limitations are but to be honest it looks good in the videos.

[wizard]

He states in the video that it is a custom tool holder with a retention knob.

I just found FADEC web site a few minutes ago and even after several months it is pretty worthless. Way below expectations for 2013, with a total lack of decent data about the machine. That being said the taper is stated as being R8. The tool holders are however a different story.

I would have jumped at a machine like that if it had more Z height. 8.5" is not enough. I am lucky to get by with the 14" on my 770.

Wade

This is what I mean by a total lack of credible web presence for 2013. The 8.5" is stated to be Z axis travel. This unfortunately tells us nothing about the clearance under the spindle. In the pictures it is pretty apparent that there is more that 8.5 inches of clearance.

I realize that this is a start up and as such they most likely don't have millions to focus on a fancy web site, but really a drawing and a PDF with specs would go a very long ways sales wise. Especially here where the product is unique and as such we don't have multiple vendors for the same basic hardware.

[Ben Colby]

It's a R8 taper that has been cutoff where the taper ends and a retention knob has been added instead of a ISO type internal thread. He's added a BT/CAT flange at the other end of the R8 taper. I find it odd that he didn't just use a BT30. He obviously is hoping this takes off and he can sell his "custom" tool holders. This would be my key issue with the machine, how much does his "custom" tooling cost and how good is it? I suspect that you are limited to 3/4" shank cutters max. Lastly, I would have been happier to see it "rigid tap" than float.

[DareBee]

I agree that it sounds weird (maybe my minds eye does not see it correctly).
An R8 collet is a fully collapsing device, it could not work with a driver dog.
Maybe they are hacking up weldon (solid shank) type R8 tooling and welding an ER socket onto the end for the collets.
Just guessing (obviously).
Making propriety spindle tooling is a business suicide in todays world

[wizard]

I agree that it sounds weird (maybe my minds eye does not see it correctly).
An R8 collet is a fully collapsing device, it could not work with a driver dog.

R8 defines a taper, not all R8 tooling are collapsing collets.

Maybe they are hacking up weldon (solid shank) type R8 tooling and welding an ER socket onto the end for the collets.
Just guessing (obviously).

There is really nothing to hack per say, the modifications for the driving dogs appear to be completely external to the standard R8 taper. As to R8 styled quick release tooling this isn't een the first attempt that I've seen for this sort of modified holder for CNC use.

Making propriety spindle tooling is a business suicide in todays world

Maybe but this doesn't look to be all that proprietary. Frankly they look like easy to make holders.

[mactec54]

underthetire

He is using a R8 modified spindle & makes his own custom tooling, I have never figured this out, as to why he used a R8, It makes no sense to do something like this, plus the work area of the machine is very small, The spindle is good enough for a machine like this, But a #30 taper would not of changed to much, & made it a much better machine

[wizard]

I'm not concerned about the small work area, either the machine fits somebodies needs or it doesn't.

The spindle is a far more interesting discussion. I have to wonder to what extent the spindle is modified and if it can take standard R8 tooling with the ATC draw bar hardware removed. If it can that might be a rational explanation for using R8. However the point remains there are a number of standard tapers out there that would have worked that are already well documented, ISO 20 & 30 for example.

The one big issue with this machine is the lack of solid documentation, their web site sucks in this regard. Little details like the rational for the modified R8 and things like clearance under the spindle would go a long way to satisfying a number of potential user concerns. I don't see the modified R8 as necessarily bad, it is the lack of info that is the real concern to me.

underthetire

He is using a R8 modified spindle & makes his own custom tooling, I have never figured this out, as to why he used a R8, It makes no sense to do something like this, plus the work area of the machine is very small, The spindle is good enough for a machine like this, But a #30 taper would not of changed to much, & made it a much better machine

[Smertrios]

You tube video of the bolton machine showing it tapping air (I think) Did look like a ER collet holding the tap.
Bolton Tools 3 AXIS CNC MILL WITH 10 POSITION ATC - YouTube

The cuts made in the video were not too impressive but the machine rapid and tool change speeds were. Part of me is thinking it may have been sped up or it could just be bad video quality. I sent the seller on ebay a message asking if it comes in single phase and if it taps (before I saw the video). I'll report back to this thread with the response.

[vmax549]

From what I understand it uses a STOCK R8 spindle that has a gripper assy pressed into place in the upper side(straight portion) of the r8 area. Next it uses a CAT30 tool holder than has been reground to an R8 taper. Using the stock R8 makes a lot of sense as it is a production item and hence lower cost.

Anyone can take an Cat30 tool holder and have it ground to the R8 taper (;-)

So what is not to love about it? It will also fit where most cannot go in a tight home based shop. Alos single phase power, plug it into the drier plug if needed.

AND an ATC to boot. not just an add on device.

Just a thought, (;-) TP

[Smertrios]

I've been looking on an imports websites and I wish I knew how to do it myself. That said my guess is that the bolton machine does rigid tapping just like in the video. Wish it came with a full enclosure tho.

[wizard]

I actually like this little machine but I do have a problem with information flow. Just about every supplier of machine tools out there does a better job of delivering information and specs on their machines.

From what I understand it uses a STOCK R8 spindle that has a gripper assy pressed into place in the upper side(straight portion) of the r8 area. Next it uses a CAT30 tool holder than has been reground to an R8 taper. Using the stock R8 makes a lot of sense as it is a production item and hence lower cost.

This may very well be true but Fadec really needs to be more forthright in detailing just what their machine is. Especially with something new like this.

Anyone can take an Cat30 tool holder and have it ground to the R8 taper (;-)

Or just chuck some stock in a CNC lathe. I really don't see a problem with the taper being new. It is just another new way of dealing with small machine tool tapers just like TTS. The problem isn't that it is new it is rather the lack of info.

So what is not to love about it? It will also fit where most cannot go in a tight home based shop. Alos single phase power, plug it into the drier plug if needed.

AND an ATC to boot. not just an add on device.

Just a thought, (;-) TP

I actually like the machine. Like many I'm bothered by what appears to be a short Z travel but again the lack of specs here is the bigger problem. In other words is that 8" from above the table, above the vise or measured from someplace else. It makes a big difference if putting a vise on the machine burns up 4" of your travel.

Beyond that it is the Z axis, I would imagine ordering a machine with extra travel would be possible as it is a steel tube.

In any event it is a start up business, I would expect some shortcomings to be overcomed as they get going with production and sales. It is the nature of the beast, infrastructure takes time.

[wizard]

I've been looking on an imports websites and I wish I knew how to do it myself. That said my guess is that the bolton machine does rigid tapping just like in the video. Wish it came with a full enclosure tho.

For the money being asked the Fadec machine looks like a really good deal! An enclosure like is seen on the UMC-10 is almost a requirement on a CNC machine, so if you don't intend to DIY an enclosure you should seriously consider a machine with one. Hopefully we will see some actual owners posting here soon.

[Smertrios]

I found one used BT30 tool holder for a 1" endmill and it puts into perspective the size of the BT30 taper.

Lyndex B3006 1000 1" End Mill Holder BT30 Taper | eBay

[Smertrios]

https://www.facebook.com/FadecEng
Has more specific information about the machine and the cost of the tool holders seems to be a flatrate $75.00 each.

[Ben Colby]

I actually like the machine a great deal, with the exception of the custom tooling. 30 years ago, ACROLOC made a fairly capable CNC machining center that used a proprietary spindle socket and their custom tool holders. Their "idea" was that they would make a bundle of money selling custom tool holders for their reasonably priced machines. The problem was their custom design tooling sucked, ie popped out during cuts etc. I'm not saying this is the case on the Fadec but it makes me wary. It cut rather well on their video, although that "FLY Cutter" looked seriously SCARY.

[Smertrios]

How do you think the relatively cheap chinese machines would be?
VMC330L mini CNC china machine center, View cnc vertical machining center, GOOD Product Details from Tengzhou City Good CNC Machine Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

Not sure exactly what 15-16k would get me or how much the total costs would be for the machine because when I look at the companies listings there are too many images that dont belong sometimes (IMO =)). I will bet its not too far off from what that listing shows. Alibaba has this company listed as "Facilities onsite checked" company.

Just tossing this out there because its something I have looked at a few times. I think when/if its time for me to get a big machine I will likely not go with the smaller VMC and will buy something used on eBay. Not 100% sure about buying used because the new chinese may not be too far off the price of a good used VMC.

One thing I like about the smaller VMC is the smaller HP motor... Does a smaller motor use power more efficiently especially when the extra HP is likely not used often or at all? My 1/4 hp TAIG can remove a 1/2 cubic inch of aluminum per minute easily when taking the full width of the cutter and can *easily* double that if taking less than 1/2 the width of the cutter. The smaller machines with 3 hp motors could by my rough estimate remove 6 cubic inches of material per minute correct? Now that I think about it I do push my little motor and the power consumption goes up a great deal past the 1/4HP wattage of 750/4 <- is that right?

[Jam67es]

Did look like a ER collet holding the tap.