[dufas]

[QUOTE=NinerSevenTango;475933]John Dewey,

Sounds like Handlewanker and Dewey would be fast and close friends.....

[handlewanker]

Ole Dufa, so far up yourself you can't see daylight as usual.

Nope, I don't subscribe to any form of totalitarianism, (although I'm quite sociable in a quaint sort of way), just too much like the big boys at school leaning on the small boys to get their sweet packets (candy) etc, under the approving eye of a teacher.

So I won't debate idealogy with you humanoids insofar as it pleases me to think that your country has never been more ripe for a change in it's point of view, seeing as the whole world compares you to an ancient overfull cesspit, that desperately needs a clean out and is well past it's use by date etc etc etc ad nauseum.

The topic of this thread is the coming climate change, and idealogy won't solve that problem, but collective team effort by the populace and your masters will probably make the coming events an experience of historical importance rather than an occurence of cataclysmic proportions.

Your future is in your hands, don't be so focused that you only care for yourselves individually, or is that the American Way I've heard about?

"Think not what your country is doing to you, but what you are doing to your country".

Which roughly translated means, "Don't stuff up the environment, others are going to need it too"
Ian.
BTW, who's John Dewey? (rhetorical)

[elmerfud]

Just last month i travelled to Newcastle from Melbourne in Australia, Newcastle produces a large coal export. On the horizon of the main beach you can see the coal ships out to the horizon, maybe 50 or so. i heard a rumour China burns 200 ships worth a day and builds a new coal fired power plant every two days. i also heard since 2003 arctic ice reduced by 25% to now. In 5 days duration we had 3 king tides, our tea trees a blooming 3 months to early. The debate should be how far have gone and can it be reversed, in my mind (glass half empty type) it may be to late going on facts.
The CSIRO in australia learnt to capture carbon in a liquid just last week (june2008). Lets hope for the future individuals such as your kids that the wheels of progress turn in a new direction, one in which the planet and us both wins.
Heated emotional clap trap only delays action, we need swift government, business leadership action in harmony with a lifestyle revolution, without communist tones.

[Mariss Freimanis]

I can't pretend something is real when it's not. There is no global warming. "Revolve" your lifestyle if you wish but leave mine alone. I like mine just the way it is, thank you.

Mariss

[jcoats]

Given the madness some folks feel about it, I am just trying to figure out a way to provide a good or service that these folks want to buy, that I don't feel like I am stealing their money. I want it to be something 'real', that won't do any harm whether or not their 'cause' is real.

Still makes me wonder how we were entering an ice age just 20 years ago according to all the public 'experts'!

[NinerSevenTango]

A few months back, I wrote a rambling dissertation (or two) about the unsustainability of paper money and the dangers it represents to empires and the unfortunate subjects who pull the yoke for them.

One of them was here:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=65

In it, I warned that the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was in panic mode, printing (creating) money to bail out the entire banking sector, which is bankrupt (if it were your business, you would have been gone long ago). It is caught between a Rock and a Hard Place, pouring more and more dollars (computer digits created out of thin air) into these institutions, which are in trouble because of the past practices of creating money out of thin air.

I warned that once the banking system has been bailed out with fake money, they would have to quickly reverse course, raising interest rates and pretty much shutting down all fiat money lending, in order to save the value of the dollar. Because if the dollar tanks, it's game over. And I warned that this course of events is what caused the first Great Depression.

The problem is that the Fed is not yet out from between the Rock and the Hard Place, and in fact may never get out.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are gifts from the New Deal of the last Great Depression. A mechanism to set up a couple of quasi-public banks that could loan money out of thin air under rules that regular banks couldn't operate under. (To bail the economy out of a crisis created by paper money with yet more paper money.) They grew into one of the largest government interventions into economic affairs in the history of man. And they are now bankrupt.

Last week, when the Treasury Secretary, the head of the Federal Reserve Bank and a few others were pronouncing that these failed banks had plenty of capital and everything was all right, that was the signal -- a collapse is imminent. (You can always tell what is coming when the con men come out to make public pronouncements to keep your confidence up.)

Now, again just as before, unprecedented steps were taken over the weekend (because everything else is closed on the weekend), and this morning comes the announcement: a bailout by the taxpayers of the very engine that created the housing mess.

Only this time, it's more dangerous. It's dangerous because now there are only two likely scenarios I can see coming out of this.

What they would like to happen is for business to go along as usual, with Fannie and Freddie making cheap credit available (at about 10% less than the rate of real inflation!) so that banks can sell and package mortgages and sell them to Fannie or Freddie, who will then package them as government securities and sell them on the market.

The problem with this is that the bailout is happening through inflation. The government has no intention nor ability to raise the funds out of taxes. The value that was falsely created and is now collapsing is going to be buoyed by yet more of the air that blew it up in the first place. Only it takes ever greater infusions of air-money to get ever less and less effect each time. Doing this greatly raises the risk of hyper-inflation and the attendant collapse of the dollar on world markets. And if foreign entities start to run away from the huge reserves of dollars they hold, the value could collapse and it's game over for the dollar. This is the Rock.

The other possible scenario is that the brakes will be put on lending, and the entire home mortgage market will wither, along with the remaining housing construction industry. While this is what should have happened a long time ago, because not allowing it to happen created the bubble in the first place, this time there is a difference. In the past, "wise" regulators would raise interest rates periodically to create a recession and bleed off some of the money supply, waiting until increases in productivity in the economy gave them something more to skim off with the next huge balloon of fake money. This time, there are fewer people working in the productive sectors of the economy, with a huge portion of the productive capital having fled overseas. Manufacturing has been gutted, housing has been gutted, and farming is roaring along in its own bubble created by subsidies, taxohol, and a huge rush by the public out of stocks and toxic derivatives and into commodities. There just isn't more room for quick growth in any productive sector of the economy. So even if they put the brakes on now, it will probably slow the slide of the dollar, but it will launch us into the next Great Depression. This is the Hard Place.

My guess is that they will risk crashing on the Rock until after the next administration takes office, at which time they will be forced to go to the Hard Place. Meanwhile, they will try to perform a delicate balancing act, hoping and praying that the status quo holds.

Since the value of the money is whatever people think it is, it is by definition a con game. It is your confidence in the currency that holds it up. So watch out. When the con men in government and banking amp up the reassurances, that means there is blood in the water -- your blood. It means that the status quo is in danger, and so is the value of everything you own, most importantly the value of your time of life -- your labor.

Hang on to your hats, people. It's going to be a bumpy ride. The evil corruption of the Federal Reserve Bank that Thomas Jefferson warned us about is accomplishing what the Global Warming alarmists have been after all along: the downfall of those they envy and hate (their fellow man who buys SUV's because you can't buy a decent grocery-getter any more), and the downfall of the evil smokestack industries. Those who want a reduction in CO2 (which means a reduction in energy) are going to get it. Everything is made from energy, and we are all going to have less of everything. Those who want government control over all aspects of the economy are going to get it. When people are out of work, then kicked out of their unpaid-for homes, they will come begging to the government with their hands out, demanding to be taken care of. And they will be taken care of, in the way dependents are taken care of by a master.

People who live in other countries are not going to be very well insulated from all of this. All countries operate on the same fiat currency model. Most of the advanced ones underwent a similar housing bubble, and depend to a lesser or greater extent on trade with the U.S.

Don't be surprised if the next Great Depression is used as an attempt to institute the century-old vision of a New World Order, as envisioned and written about by those who control the central banks. And don't be surprised if this world government uses Global Warming as the vehicle to regulate economies, as a tool to redistribute wealth where and when it suits them.

The Friends Of Paper Money are the ones that are financing practically all science research (with the fruits of YOUR labor), and making sure the money only goes to those who parrot the official hymn. Through one means and another, they are closing in on their goal -- total control over every aspect of your life, so that your efforts will be bent towards their ends.

Believe their lies at your peril.

--97T--
That's my trolling spam for the day. Have a nice day!

Disclaimer: Economists are almost always wrong in their predictions, picking winners and losers in the market is a fool's game, and I'm not even an economist (but I might qualify as a fool). But Ludwig Von Mises and others have identified to my satisfaction the fundamental factors that make up what a market is, and what the effects of intervention are. And so far, though the time scale is almost impossible to predict, fundamentally the effects are inescapable. So, I could be all wrong. Please prove me wrong!

Edit: This ties in with my previous posts because one of the primary effects of public schooling is a complete ignorance in the general public of the nature of money. Not just economics (which isn't hard either), but the very nature of what money is! Thus they can be chained into a life of perpetual debt servitude, never realizing why, thinking that it is just normal for banks to own everything and never questioning that the bank's ownership was created out of nothing! Break out of that mold, watch this little video:
[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279"]Money As Debt[/ame]

Edit 2: We're all freakin' doomed! McCain fancies himself as an FDR! FDR is who prolonged and deepened the depression with socialist programs which are crashing this very day in a most spectacular manner. He is clueless about economics and proved it in the primary debates. Only Ron Paul warned about this, and was ridiculed for it. If McCain wins, history will view him as another Hoover (who was vilified for trying to undo the damage the central bank caused, and who got the blame for the depression because he was unlucky enough to be in office when it hit). This article should be good for a cynical laugh, at least.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/...ica/mccain.php

[dufas]

Ole Dufa, so far up yourself you can't see daylight as usual.

Ah, the forum clown has opened his mouth. And just like the proverbial sh*t eating dog, got his mouth full then tries to spit it out.

If you would go just a hair further in your grasp of knowledge, you would realize when the conveyor stops, it stops for everyone. We may have to live in a cold climate but at least we'll have water. You were smart enough to move to what will become a dead zone. A no water, drought ridden, speck of land surrounded by a dead sea. Better start saving your goat bags now or hope you can operate like a camel. Well, you could always move to South America while there's time but they might not want your type there. They are choosy about what the dog drags in.........

[handlewanker]

Sorry to hear you have problems Dufa, being that far up, but I'm allright jack, we're surrounded by water you know, what's a little bit of salt to a desalination plant?

"sticks and stones...." etc etc

97T, thanks for that very enlightening vid on the money game.

I still don't understand how the bank can own me as I don't have any outstanding debt to any bank, but if my investments suddenly dried up due to lack of interest incoming, well that would be another matter to ponder.

Suppose I retrieved all my investments and bought a carrot farm.
Then I could grow carrots and be self supplying for ever, plus the excess carrots I could convert to potatoes etc by exchanging them at the local market stall.

Is this the answer, simply put, to the national debt situation?

However if the government allowed foreign carrot imports to undermine the value of my carrots, wouldn't the solution to that problem be to limit or put a tax on imports (tariffs) so as to safeguard my sustainability?
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Just read your (Dufa) post again, #3787, the conveyor is a naturally occuring event, but the fact that it benefits certain regions is a matter of dynamics.

If the conveyor deviates then certain occurences will eventuate and I leave it to your vivid imagination as to who will get it worst.

In two extremes, if I were to be given the choice of living in a snowfield or a desert, I'd choose the desert anyday, been there for many years of my life.
Ian.

[Mariss Freimanis]

Not a clue what that means. Things are different when they change? Change is bad, it's scary like the bogeyman under the bed? I like warm better than cold? Really deep.

Thank goodness at least you have lost that silly Western drawl you affect from time to time. You may see yourself as a versatile master linguist capable of subtle inflection and dialect but the results are comical. I say, you do know what I mean old boy, tut tut? Brilliant. That's a good chap. Wink wink, nudge, nudge. Well done then, carry on. Chin up old sport, Talley ho!

It sounds like that.

Mariss

[handlewanker]

How about a few "cor blimeys" here and there, would that indicate a regional shift?
Or how about "nudge nudge wink wink, Know what I mean then".

If you really want to be condescending to someone you say in a soothing voice, "Run along now, there's a good chap", not "That's a good chap", or haven't you seen the movie My Fair Lady with Rex Harrison etc.

I really didn't know they talked that way out west, I thought it was more down South, but you know best, I thought out west it was "howdy pardner, beggin' yer pardin maam, well ah'll be doggoned, yah hoo, yup, 'ah shore am" sort of thing, or is that Texas, I'd better brush up on my westerns.

Anyway sport, gotta go and plant the carrots......gonna be a dry summer by all accounts.
Ian.

[elmerfud]

Regarding your opinion Mariss, I dont take offence.
You've got to admit things are changing weatherwise.
If it isnt a cycle then it will be known only when its to late, I always like to err on the side of caution.

[dynosor]

You've got to admit things are changing weatherwise.

Hasn't this always been the case? Hence "as changeable as the weather".


3870 hits for "as changeable as the weather":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...the+weather%22

[ImanCarrot]

It hasn't changed in Scotland. If you're wet, it's raining, if it's not raining it soon will be

[MIKE JEFFERS]

and if you get bitten its probably summer

[NinerSevenTango]

<snipped out superfluous snippy comment>

97T, thanks for that very enlightening vid on the money game.

I still don't understand how the bank can own me as I don't have any outstanding debt to any bank, but if my investments suddenly dried up due to lack of interest incoming, well that would be another matter to ponder.

Suppose I retrieved all my investments and bought a carrot farm.
Then I could grow carrots and be self supplying for ever, plus the excess carrots I could convert to potatoes etc by exchanging them at the local market stall.

Is this the answer, simply put, to the national debt situation?

However if the government allowed foreign carrot imports to undermine the value of my carrots, wouldn't the solution to that problem be to limit or put a tax on imports (tariffs) so as to safeguard my sustainability?
Ian.

Yes, your personal protection involves not being in debt. And better yet, being able to produce something that you can live on if the division of labor economy fails.

Money is what facilitates a division of labor economy. When currency fails, people have to resort to barter or a different currency, and it's difficult to trade machined parts directly for food. Unfortunately, not very many of us in the metals or electronics fields have the ability to revert to subsistence farming. We are all-in, and our own survival requires the survival of the division of labor economy that allows our specialization. If the system crumbles, it crumbles in a very bad way. Note that bread is contraband in Zimbabwe.

Anyway, you did get the point. All money is borrowed into existence except in countries where the government prints the money directly (and their downfall is that much faster). So if nobody borrows any money and pays off all their debt, there will be no money!

If you have interest-bearing accounts that you will depend upon for your retirement, that is another concern. The problem is that if your money is in a bank account, you will realize a rate of return less than the rate of real inflation. (Government figures on inflation are hogwash. Inflation is the rate of money creation over the rate of money destruction plus growth, and governments lie about it. You know how your cost of living is going better than they do.) If your money is in a stock market somewhere or a mutual fund, it isn't particularly safe, and the average investor gets a haircut there, too. If it's in government bonds, again, you are guaranteed to be moving backwards on the treadmill. Besides the injury of the loss by inflation, there is the insult of taxation on any gains. The way things are today, any money that is 'invested' in these things is a gamble. I'm not an economic advisor, but as for myself, I only gamble with money I can afford to lose (not much, and the retirement fund at work took a big hit). There are safer investments in most stable economies (like owning a rental property or running your own business).

Myself, I like to save a little. Savings are not investments. One very safe way to save is to buy silver or gold coins. Here, pre-1964 silver coins are widely recognized and carry little premium over their weight. They are exceedingly difficult for external agencies to tax or confiscate, and they will always be worth their weight in silver. There may be difficulty in converting them back to currency someday, but not as much difficulty or expense as other savings vehicles, especially if things get real bad. (But watch out: when things got bad in the U.S. Great Depression, FDR the hero outlawed the possession of gold by American citizens! Made holding gold coins a felony!)

This week in the US, IndyMac is in the news. Rumors started circulating and a run on the bank ensued. A run on any bank will bring it down, as you saw in the video most of them loan out 9.5 times as much money as they have on deposit. Since it's a con game, your confidence is held up by a government insurance sticker. If there is a run on the bank, the government will print the money and give it to you. Not very reassuring, but better than getting stuck with nothing. In the US, you are insured to a maximum of $100,000 per account. In the IndyMac failure, it is reported that there are 10,000 hapless depositors who are going to be fleeced of one thousand million dollars. That's a billion. Bad for them, bad for the rest of us that the system is to be propped up with more fake dollars. Worse for the house of cards as a whole. Because when people lose confidence, they get nervous and start withdrawing money, and this puts all the banks in danger of collapse overnight. And the insured funds will be paid for with more fake money. That's the scenario they are all quaking in their boots over. So the TV says, "Everything is all right. Go back to sleep. Sleeeeeep. Sleeeeeeep." The real problem nobody dares mention is that those people who see the uninsured money disappear nationwide will look at their own accounts and pull any uninsured amounts out before it evaporates, too. And this is the big money customers. The banks at most risk are those with the biggest depositors!

There was a some unintentional humor in the news coverage. Film with a voice-over, and the film showed customers standing at the locked doors of the bank. On the door it said, "YOU CAN COUNT ON US". Hahahaha!

And finally, it seems to me that carrots would fare poorly in the desert. There is a geographical anomaly not too far from here in Michigan, USA, where the soil is black in a wide swath perhaps ten miles wide by twenty miles long. It is visible from the air and I fly over it regularly. It appears to have been deposited by receding glaciers (my theory). Practically the entire region gets planted in carrots. But that's all I know about carrots. So it seems to me they would have a difficult time in sandy, dry conditions.

But I could be all wrong in all of this.

Somebody please prove me wrong!

P.S. A tax on imports of a product is a three-way circle-jerk with the consumer always being the one facing away from the other two guys. The domestic producer gets protected from competition, and gets to charge too much for his work. The tax collector gets fat off the tax. And the consumer pays too much for the product either way. The side benefit: the domestic producer helps the tax collector get elected, who makes sure the producer gets paid too much, who then has more money to devote to political causes, etc. They both have an orgy with the money and power and the mixing of the two, and the consumer suffers not only by having been fleeced by the power of the government gun, but he also gets to suffer under the corruption bred by that mixing of money and government. The corruption rots the corporation and the government alike.

Global warming? We might need it to survive!

--97T--

[handlewanker]

So, all Zimbabwe has to do to cure their problems is to create a new currency note called a new Zim dollar.

The New Zim dollar would be equal to 1 billion old Zim dollars, which would still buy less than half a loaf of bread, but it's cheaper to print a 1 New Zim dollar note than a billion of the old stuff.

After a while the people would get used to being paid in a few New Zim dollars, so how can Mugabe fail if he just kept issuing newer and newer Zim dollars as the situation arises.

Of course the 1 New Zim dollar would only buy 1 US$ which would also buy half a loaf of bread.

The hidden clause is what is printed in microscopically small type on the 1 New Zim dollar bank note, like, "I promise to pay the bearer on demand 1 billion average sized carrots", which would escalate to two billion average sized carrots with the next issue of new currency update.

I could quite see a run on the carrot farm if the people got a bit worried, but as long as the law said " To be paid only at the discretion of the presedent" then everything would stay under control, so simple.

I expect in US terms with that inflation rate, this would be like stating that The bank would promise to pay 1 million pounds of gold for each dollar presented which would grow to two million as the currency got reinvented, with eventually one hundred million pounds of gold being normal, only the law stating that it would pay out only at the discretion of the president etc, now that is a licence to print money, how can a bank fail?

By that token, Fort Knox could just be a fictitious bullion storage depot, but without any bullion to pay out because the president dare not, but as long as the bank keeps promising, then everyone would be happy.

Even the Chinese would be happy to accept the new currency as long as they didn't insist on having the gold instead, a dollar still looked like a dollar.
So if the gold was kept as a figure of speech, a mythical entity, it would eventually dissapear altogether, as long as no one wanted to actually see it.

BTW, when I was in the Namib desert some years back, we had a hydoponics farm that supplied all the vegetable needs for a town of 2000 people, and that was in the middle of one of the driest deserts in Africa, with water being pumped from boreholes next to the Orange River.
Ian.

[Rekd]

Unfortunately, not very many of us in the metals or electronics fields have the ability to revert to subsistence farming.

No, but we can make parts for guns, generators and other such implements of resistance.

[Geof]

No, but we can make parts for guns, generators and other such implements of resistance.

As the Dalek's used to say 'resistance is futile'.

How long, and what are you going to resist, if you have no food available, no means of making ammunition for your weapons and no fuel to run your generator?

[sergizmo]

Just last month i travelled to Newcastle from Melbourne in Australia, Newcastle produces a large coal export. On the horizon of the main beach you can see the coal ships out to the horizon, maybe 50 or so. i heard a rumour China burns 200 ships worth a day and builds a new coal fired power plant every two days. i also heard since 2003 arctic ice reduced by 25% to now. In 5 days duration we had 3 king tides, our tea trees a blooming 3 months to early. The debate should be how far have gone and can it be reversed, in my mind (glass half empty type) it may be to late going on facts.
The CSIRO in australia learnt to capture carbon in a liquid just last week (june2008). Lets hope for the future individuals such as your kids that the wheels of progress turn in a new direction, one in which the planet and us both wins.
Heated emotional clap trap only delays action, we need swift government, business leadership action in harmony with a lifestyle revolution, without communist tones.

If by "swift government action" you mean higher taxes, new laws to further restrict freedoms, and bureaucrats poking into every aspect of your life no thank you. That's all this is, fear mongering to make money (Al Gore, European governments, possibility of the gov of Canada) and enact new restrictive law (The "green Shift" in Canada). Fear mongering has been used in the past to push new laws through (Patriot Act) and it will be used again.

Do you really trust governments to decide energy policy? The same governments who made the huge push for ethanol and biofuels which has caused millions to go hungry for no reason?

There has been a record year of cooling in 2007. The antarctic ice grew, a lot. I guess we can call that a negative and blame it on "climate change". It gets hot, man made climate change. It gets cold, man made climate change.
Guess what? There is no "magic number" in terms of ideal temperature. It has changed forever and will continue to do so. Solar activity has a LOT more to do with temperature than carbon. As do clouds. But it's easier to make money by using computer simulations of what "may" happen due to carbon than to really look at the causes and effects.

Look, I'm not against having some environmental regulations and standards. I want the water to be clean and air quality to be good. I really think we need to look at garbage as a big environmental problem. There must be a way to use it for energy, kill two birds with one stone. But when the government restricts my access to energy (and as a by product causing everything to be more expensive) and imposes a zillion new laws to regulate my life, that is a power grab and nothing else.

The free market will sort this out. The price of oil and natural gas has risen to such a degree that many new nuclear plants in Canada and the UK are being built. That's a start. The government needs to stay out of the way.

Serge