[Geof]

This question really highlights my ignorance but to who exactly is the 900 billion owed or will be owed? From where/whom does the government borrow the money? From a handful of high level bankers or is the money raised via national treasury bonds or do they simply print more (thereby owing to no one but in doing so lowers/destroys the value of the currency) or is it some combination of some/all of these thing?.....

To all intents and purposes they just 'print the money' and yes it will in the long term lower the value of the currency by causing rampant inflation. The excesses of the past two decades which saw more or less artificial wealth created have to be corrected and this can happen in two ways: One is to simply let people take their losses as was done with Lehman Brothers and with the people conned by Madoff. The other is the do what is being done; create money to turn the artificial wealth into 'real' wealth which is debased in value. The first approach creates severe short term economic havoc that hurts everyone but may hurt the perpetrators of the mess to a greater extent. The second approach creates less economic havoc but it it spread over time and has a disproportionate effect on people who did not get into debt because inflation wipes out the worth of savings; at the same time it tends to make real the (artificial) gains made by the aforementioned perpetrators.

[One of Many]

Hi Skippy,

If you believe the Government should spend money it doesn't have on conditions like GW that might or might not exist, they already have you hooked by a conspiracy. When they lean toward slight of hand and coercion to fund an agenda, something is seriously awry as untrustworthy politics, not science. The double edged sword is that ignorance to what may befall you due to inattention and apathy makes the perfect uninformed voter. It matters not whether it is the Government or Nature that is the culprit, but that you are clued into what either might be up to. Taking on man's influence of Mother Nature is a sure loser in my book.

Interesting how much Mars climate has paralleled ours in direct relation to Solar activity.

Climate Elsewhere!

The 900 billion is another baseless number. From what I have read, 100 billion will come from private interests and once they have that, they can leverage the rest at 9:1. The real cost will be 1.2 trillion or better with interest added. Banks with troubled assets were originally leveraged at 30 and 40:1 when the crash came. The reports are that our officials are giving full price for devalued troubled assets. That makes it even tougher to have this pay off or break even.

DC

[martinw]

Dear jhowelb, Skippy, Geof and One of Many

It seems like not buying newspapers and not watching the TV news is unlikely to cure me of my gloom. I may have to give up CNCZone as well.

I suppose that the optimist in me realises that my destroyed savings now renders me financially insolvent enough to be unable to afford the swingeing fees at a private Swiss suicide clinic.

Hey! Things are looking up!

Best wishes,

Martinw

[One of Many]

Oh Gawd Martin.....they've gotten to you too? It's a trap, protect yourself!

You are saving the forests by not consuming news paper print, reducing your carbon foot print by not watching the tele. Then you go off about population reduction and dropping out of the Zone? They have med's for these conditions now, ya know.

But hey......it's up to you.

Just one thing, after I apologize for my unethical conduct and lack of conscience;

Before you go. Please..... add me to your last will and testament. I'll put any neat shop items you've posted about here to good use. Between me and those Swiss "clinics" err Bank accounts, Mums the word! Shhhhhh, We'll just chalk you up as an Alternate Energy Source while we're at it......

DC

[Bill Johns]

First Oz fires. Reason, they stopped the guys from clearing thousands of acres. I have a friend over there that used to chain clear in Oz. It has been stopped so of course its buring there. It was set on purpose anyway from what I heard.

The bail out. What caused the mess? Ah yeah like the store "stupid prices"
Cars and pickups that cost $40,000. when top dollar vehicle should only be $10,000 if you compair wage to price of say 1969. Same goes for houses things purposely priced high by the fake loans creating the illusion that everyone was a millionair and money was no object. And the good old us of a
helping to maintain the slave society. Locking up land no homesteading allowed, super usury debt, meaning pure and simple slavery. Loose your job and your on the street. I love it now people will wish they had some of that free and or really cheap land that the railroads and the timber companys got for pennies per acre years ago, for a place to live and grow food.
If we had that we all could sit back and laugh at it all.
Enjoy

[skippy]

For every economic event in the world there is always someone that does very well out of it. Right now that things are bad and likely to get worse, those with money can snap up bargains on houses and machinery and all kinds of things. Unfortunately I no longer have money so no bargains for me at this point in time. Anyway the reason I bring this up is to point out that no matter what happens, if you are prepared for it you can make money. I remember in the eighties when there was high inflation and interest on home loans in Australia was at 18%P/A. Lots of people sold off their houses due to the high interest rates however lots of people did well too. Take the case of someone that had (example only) 3 houses worth $100,000 in total and loans totals of say $70,000, therefore a net worth of $30,000. Two years later due to inflation their houses were worth $200,000 and they owed say $65,000. They now had a networth of $135,000. I realise it's artificial and that the money would be worth less but hey, it's a better scenario than putting the original $30,000 in the bank and two years later what would you have?
I'm not saying buy houses. I'm just asking the question, armed with the knowledge of what we think will happen in the world economies over the next ten years, how can each of us best benefit the situation? How can we come out winning as much as possible rather than just plain old losing.

[jhowelb]

......<snip>...... How can we come out winning as much as possible rather than just plain old losing.

As long as there is a class of people who can tax your income and possessions at what ever rate they wish and waste that money as they please you will always be a loser. Witness Chuck Schumers recent public statement about the people don't care about a few hundred million dollars spent here and there on "porkie" items in the largest boondoggle in history!

Until sufficient folks wise up and get fed up with this crap it will continue to spiral out of control until you have no freedom left at all!

[skippy]

To jhowelb: Not to criticise your post but here's my opinion: "As long as there is a class of people who can tax your income and possessions at what ever rate they wish and waste that money as they please you will always be a loser." YES, YOU ARE 100% RIGHT BUT I GUARANTEE IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE ANY TIME SOON. "Until sufficient folks wise up and get fed up with this crap......" CALL ME CYNICAL BUT IT JUST ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. IT'S CAREFULLY DOSED TO US AND WE AS CITIZENS WILL CONTINUE TO SWALLOW THE PAIN PILLS UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE. I don't have any faith whatsoever that things will change. For this reason I say that it's time to think on an individual basis, sad as that may be. My point is this: I'll assume that things are going to go in the direction that both Geof and One of Many seem to think in their last posts here and I'll assume that you are also right that we are screwed no matter. I'll assume that I am also right that on a collective or national basis we'll do nothing to change things. Now, armed with that info, do I just throw in the towel or is there a way that I personally can benefit from what is likely to happen. Yes, they're going to screw me in my taxes, etc. but hell I'd rather get screwed on taxes for making $200,000 than get screwed on taxes for making $20,000 or even pay no tax at all on the $20,000 earnt. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

There is always opportunity, you just have to train your eye to see it early in the piece.

[One of Many]

There is always opportunity, you just have to train your eye to see it early in the piece.

I have had the same thoughts Skippy. That there is the Holy Grail everyone else is looking for too. I've looked and procrastinate on what to do myself. With the investment risk so high these days, there is no clear piece to pick out so far. I have a few nest eggs to work with, but at the same time fear keeps me from risking it further.

DC

[Geof]

..... With the investment risk so high these days, there is no clear piece to pick out so far. I have a few nest eggs to work with, but at the same time fear keeps me from risking it further.

DC

The investment risk is not necessarily high these days: Let me recommend a book: Warren Buffet's biography by Alice Schroeder.

It is interesting how he got his start as a boy and young man. The entire focus of his life has been evaluating investments; he did not get involved in dot coms and all the fancy finagling of hedge funds, structured investments and all that c***. He was the one who years ago called them weapons of financial mass destruction for which he was ridiculed as a has been. Now he is in the position of having the ability to pick up distressed assets.

His approach, way back and probably today, is to evaluate the fundamental value, 'book value' of a potential investment which is what the shares would be worth if the company was liquidated. If the shares were available at a lower price than the book value, maybe a far bit lower, he would invest feeling confident that he had a cushion and if the 'book value' is higher than his purchase price the shares very likely will go up sometime in the future. Sometime may be measured in years so this type of investment is slow and measured.

This is why I say the investment risk is not necessarily high these days particularly if you look at companies that are going to be around for a long time but which may be taking a beating at the present time. Two examples are Caterpillar and Deere which are almost certainly going to be here five, ten, twenty years from now but which are suffering depressed shares prices for no reason other than they are dragged down by the general economic malaise. These are the type of company where, provided you can park your money for a few years, I don't think there is much risk. I am sure there are others.

I have not actually checked share prices for Caterpillar and Deere and it is possible it is too late to benefit from them because, realistically, investors should have been piling into their shares as soon as the bail out money aimed at infrastructure development was dreamed up. Heavy equipment companies making road building machines are bound to finish up with some of that money.

Just in case anyone wonders if I am investing like this I don't know; I have an investment adviser who does that for me. He never got me involved in hedge funds and all that stuff, three years ago he started moving me into a liquid position so he could take advantage of what he figured was coming. I think at the moment the markets are down 40%, 45%???, something like that, from 18 months ago; my portfolio was down 15% in his last report a few weeks ago. I think he is a good investment adviser.

[jhowelb]

Ole Samuel Langhorne Clemens, wry old bird that he was, spouted a bit of genius in his prose. Take, for example, the tale about the frog placed in cool water and gently warmed to a boil versus the one tossed into a boiling vat............

Alas we as a people are no more insightful than an amphibian.

We could take a page from the French revolution, or even our own. But sadly, we will probably be swallowed by another revolution of sorts from South of the border.

I am too old and sick to do anything about it other than sound the alarm for those to hear who care enough to act. Get involved, be informed, communicate with others, let your opinion be heard and vote with your brains rather than your heart.

[One of Many]

Thank you kindly for the insight Geof.

I have no advisor and handling it on my own, mine is down by 18-20%. What I have in savings is down zero for now in theory.

I was looking at Cat and Deere a few months back. Seems I read they lost some(9-10%) in the last couple weeks. Cat is down 60% for the year around $30-40 a share. About the same for Deere, yet both have been somewhat stable since last October. Might not be too late.

I've heard about that book too. Might as well look into it further!

DC

[martinw]

Oh Gawd Martin.....they've gotten to you too? It's a trap, protect yourself!


Before you go. Please..... add me to your last will and testament. I'll put any neat shop items you've posted about here to good use. Between me and those Swiss "clinics" err Bank accounts, Mums the word! Shhhhhh, We'll just chalk you up as an Alternate Energy Source while we're at it......

DC

Dear One of Many,

Sorry, but your post cheered me up no end, so have just snuck down to the pawnshop to redeem my tools, the cash for which I was about to send as a down-payment to those kind Swiss Banker/Doctors. No need to alter my Will in your favour just yet, but ,hey, maximum respect to you for the sales pitch.

BTW, I do not regard myself as Alternative Energy Source....I am a (currently)working example of Carbon Sequestration. Ah, well, Switzerland doesn't have an immediate energy crisis, so I am sure they will manage without the cash or the fuel .

Best wishes,

Martin

[One of Many]

Dear One of Many,

Sorry, but your post cheered me up no end, so have just snuck down to the pawnshop to redeem my tools, the cash for which I was about to send as a down-payment to those kind Swiss Banker/Doctors. No need to alter my Will in your favour just yet, but ,hey, maximum respect to you for the sales pitch.

BTW, I do not regard myself as Alternative Energy Source....I am a (currently)working example of Carbon Sequestration. Ah, well, Switzerland doesn't have an immediate energy crisis, so I am sure they will manage without the cash or the fuel .

Best wishes,

Martin

Pawn Shop? That would be sacrilege.

I'd never hock a tool with the embodied spirit of the dearly departed. There is Eminations and Aura like craftsmanship stored in them kinds of relics!

Oh, if they can only talk.....think of the stories they'd tell....and maybe some new terms we'd never heard before, fused together for all time in one sentence!

(Tongue in cheek) Yesss, the Swiss I've heard are like the French, only cleaner and wave a different colored flag. Pink I think!:idea: The again, for all I know, they are my kin folk on up into Germany. Note to self; don't wash no mo grundy's with red towels!

DC

[jhowelb]

Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists,
Marxists, Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know, we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but, sadly, this relationship has run its course. Our two ideological sides of America cannot, and will not ever agree on what is right, so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile, chalk it up to irreconcilable differences, and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement: Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that it should be relatively easy!
Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes. We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU.
Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA, and the military. You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore, and Rosie O'Donnell. We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart, and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies, and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's, and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood.
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us. You can have the peaceniks, and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N. But we will no longer be paying the bill. Knowing your concerns about "excess population", in your part of the country you can overcome the problem of excess population through gay marriages and choosing to kill the unborn.
We'll keep the cattle since you don't like beef anyway. We'll keep the SUVs, pickup trucks, and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon and ethanol vehicle you can find. You can give everyone healthcare, if you can find any practicing doctors.
We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kumbaya, or We Are the World.
We'll practice trickle down economics, and you can give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name, and our flag.
In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you ANWAR which one of us will need whose help in 15 years

[rokag3]

hello jhowelb,

The picture you are doing of your ideal country is pretty sade.

" We'll keep the capitalism" interisting but which capitalism are you keeping ?

the fruit of a labor is represented by money
your saving is then representing work
If capitalism is:
the invest of your saving in a busisness that give other the opportunity to work and be succesfull and in return they provide security and a reasonable gain

Me an anarchiste as nothing to complain about that.
But you are not in america nor us in europe in this logic.

greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart, and Wall Street

They are not at all working for you they only work for themself.

let me give you this definition of intelligence.
from Marvin Minsky i think(i never find this citation again) but otherwise it's from me.

Intelligence is the automatic derivate property of any ensemble of specialised agents communicating in network.

So bees are specialised but bee house is clever
So neuronnes are specialised but brain is clever
So CEO and salesman are specialised but big corps are clever

And that is the problem, I read about "world complot " unfortunately not true because there is not human involved in this process we are manipulated by "moral personne" and you or me count for peanuts for those "Artificial intelligence"

So if we want to save us.

let's consider that human is 3 motivation

reproduction love friendship solidarity associated(communisme theocracy socialism)
security food drink housing insurance for "in case" associated(capitalism, 1/2 feodalism)
respect position in the group proud associated (fascism and 1/e feodalism)

Easy to see that this is not a huge success since you work with 1/3 of the population (each of us is workink with a cocktail of those motivation)

So we have to rethink a system that value those 3 motivations and make a society for sapiens sapiens and not a "new man " to fit in a very narrowed society.

Value for the engineer that spend time at work
Value for the engineer who spend time to help others at the other end of the world for "nothing" in cnczone
Value for this teacher who help you to become that engineer and the painter the musicians the philosophers ... who make you a thinking person
Lucien

[jhowelb]

Sorry, I have no use for socialism no mater what color you paint it nor what decorations you hang on it. It does not work, it has been an abject failure every place it has been tried. It always results in tidal waves of human suffering.

As stated, I will check out soon so none of this will affect me personally. So I'll leave you with the quote "Any people who vote will get the government they deserve."

[rokag3]

I am not at all "socialiste" but does not mean i have not "social concern"
Th anarchist are usually
eliminated by the communist and the fascist(just killed)
sensured by the socialist (interdiction of proselytism)
diabolised by the capitalist and the theocrats(prison)

and since many anarchist are fighting about the scientific imposture of CFC, passive smoking, climate change etc...
I think that the ecologist will find a "clean process" to get rid of us
meanwhile you will always have crazy people who are going to fight for justice truth and knowledge

[jhowelb]

anarchist
Noun
1. a person who advocates anarchism
2. a person who causes disorder or upheaval

an·ar·chism (nr-kzm)
n.
1. The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished.
2. Active resistance and terrorism against the state, as used by some anarchists.
3. Rejection of all forms of coercive control and authority.


Again, no thank you!

[One of Many]

Lucien,

The post that jhowelb used was a bit of insider humor on opposing political ideals just like bickering spouses searching for an amicable separation in splitting the sheets, <I.E. Divorce>.

Your analysis of human motivation left out selfishness in all its relationship, political or societal forms.

Greedy corporations provide a system of interconnected flow of trade and reasonable gain that is a vast benefit to the majority. Greedy Government that produces nothing, takes everything from the productive sector to support more of the unproductive sector soon finds itself growing faster than the producers can support it. In an economic down turn, the real need for stimulus is to keep the government cash flow and use the crisis to grow by ignoring debt with more IOU's from the private sector. Yet, the productive sector (capitalism) MUST remain profitable to stay in business to generate cash for all of it. This further forces the business and private sectors to take on more government load in lean times. Maintaining the size of government takes on a selfish priority. Those damn greedy corporations better keep the money flowing.

You're proud enough to claim to be an anarchist? There lies a treacherous path in that too.

Historically, anarchy has resulted in a trade off of one totalitarian regime to another. Not one has eliminated poverty, human or equal rights. Given a global choice, most would decline to immigrate to countries who have evolved through militant coup as the next selfish tyrant that holds the path to peace by iron fisted removal of any opposition. Most of those have gone from bad to worse. I cannot think of one that has made it better for ALL its peoples.

Governments rule the populace by laws and guns. The Populace can only attempt to keep a government in check by laws and votes. Interesting example of selfishness that ignores history and crisis mode limitations. When the government so called represents the people 99% of the time and the people influence the make up of the government every 2-4 years. "We the people" are no real threat to overthrow our government.

Most philosophical teachings these days seems to manipulate the pupil into their selfish mode of ideals with distain for free thinking societies. One sides morals are another's oppression to which sapiens sapiens have no escape from elitist protectionism of their own self interests.

Again bit off topic, but the point being, the picture was not technically of an ideal, but an email joke with a thread of poignant satire. Don't take it so seriously!

DC