[Cory]

I'm running a brand new VF-1. 10k RPM with gearbox.

It's total runtime is probably under 20-30 hours. No more than 40 tops.

I've been running it almost continually for the last 5 hours. Cutting 6061 aluminum. Mainly 1/2" ball and flat endmills, moderate DOC at 7500-10K rpm, from 60-90 IPM.

Stopping between parts, it felt noticeably hotter inside the machine enclosure than out. I felt the spindle, and it feels like it's around 85-90*F. Definitely hot to the touch.

I can't imagine this is normal, however I figured maybe running it at 10k for the last 5 hours might have something to do with it?

anyone have any input?

Thanks,

Cory

[HuFlungDung]

Are you allowing some flow of coolant out the fitting on the bottom of the head, or is it all going through the programmable coolant?

[Cory]

Are you allowing some flow of coolant out the fitting on the bottom of the head, or is it all going through the programmable coolant?

We don't have programmable coolant.

[Geof]

85 to 90 F is not that hot. Are you able to hold your hand against the spindle for a very long time? If you do not have to pull your hand of because it is to hot for comfort then it really qualifies as warm . Which might seem a picky point but I have had several spindle feel distinctly warm to the touch after running long cycles at 10,000rpm.

I have also had hot spindles, much to hot to comfortably hold a hand against, and these were caused by running the machine at high speed after it had been sitting for a couple of weeks without being used.

The cure for this is to run the Haas Run In program with the spindle lube air purge turned up to 30 psi to purge accumulated oil out of the lower spindle bearing.

I suggest you simply run the Run In program and when it is cycling through the higher speeds open the door occasionally and feel the spindle. If it is too hot to touch turn the machine off, let it cool down and then restart Run In. This procedure was suggested to me by one of the Haas engineers when I sent an email about a very hot 15000rpm spindle. I had to turn the air pressure up and do the Run In twice before the machine could operate at full speed without getting hot.

We have found that on the 10000 rpm spindles it is a good idea to run the Warm Up program every morning and if the machine is idle run it again just before quitting time.

[HuFlungDung]

Ok, so does that mean you have coolant flowing out the bottom fitting on the head casting? I've not seen one without Pcool to know if they have just a big pipe off to the side or what.

[Cory]

Ok, so does that mean you have coolant flowing out the bottom fitting on the head casting? I've not seen one without Pcool to know if they have just a big pipe off to the side or what.

The coolant does not flow onto the head casting.

Thanks Geof, that's what I was looking for.

The machine had been sitting for about a week. I ran the warm up program prior to use. Are you referring to the warmup program, or the run-in program? I run the warm up program quite often.

The spindle is only warm by your definition. I could hold my hand to it for an extended length of time, without experiencing discomfort.

The only real reason I was concerned was because the Haas tech mentioned during the initial setup that the spindle had some excess vibration. It still seems like it makes what I'd qualify as a fairly awful noise at high RPM's, compared to other Haas mills I've heard running. I plan on having them come out to take a look-see, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to destroy my machine in the meantime

[Geof]

The coolant does not flow onto the head casting.

Thanks Geof, that's what I was looking for.

The machine had been sitting for about a week. I ran the warm up program prior to use. Are you referring to the warmup program, or the run-in program? I run the warm up program quite often.

The spindle is only warm by your definition. I could hold my hand to it for an extended length of time, without experiencing discomfort.

The only real reason I was concerned was because the Haas tech mentioned during the initial setup that the spindle had some excess vibration. It still seems like it makes what I'd qualify as a fairly awful noise at high RPM's, compared to other Haas mills I've heard running. I plan on having them come out to take a look-see, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to destroy my machine in the meantime

Do the Run In program as I suggest while checking the temperature.

Regarding your excessive vibration I have a Super MiniMil which had a horrible vibration at certain speeds. The local Haas tech did a vibration analysis three times, sent the data to Haas and everything checked out okay so I just let it run. Then we started doing a job which needed a lot of material remove so we were pushing the machine hard; it made an atrocious noise. It was well out of warranty so I started pulling covers off to see if I could locate the source. It was the spindle sheet metal vibrating and hitting a ridge on the casting; you could see the shiny polished metal. The ridge seemed like something left over from the casting so I used a grinder to take a bout a sixteenth off...bingo quiet machine.

Incidentally are you using balanced tooling? 10000rpm is borderline for balanced tooling; you can get away with using non-balanced holders but at full speed the machine might make a lot of noise.

[Cory]

Do the Run In program as I suggest while checking the temperature.

Regarding your excessive vibration I have a Super MiniMil which had a horrible vibration at certain speeds. The local Haas tech did a vibration analysis three times, sent the data to Haas and everything checked out okay so I just let it run. Then we started doing a job which needed a lot of material remove so we were pushing the machine hard; it made an atrocious noise. It was well out of warranty so I started pulling covers off to see if I could locate the source. It was the spindle sheet metal vibrating and hitting a ridge on the casting; you could see the shiny polished metal. The ridge seemed like something left over from the casting so I used a grinder to take a bout a sixteenth off...bingo quiet machine.

Incidentally are you using balanced tooling? 10000rpm is borderline for balanced tooling; you can get away with using non-balanced holders but at full speed the machine might make a lot of noise.

I'm using Rego-Fix ER-32 collet holders which are supposedly balanced to 22,000 RPMs.

The machine just doesn't quite sound right at all RPMs. It just becomes more noticeable as you get above 6000 RPM or so. It gets better as it runs longer (or maybe my ears just become more accustomed to it).

[axis]

if the tech thinks that somthing didnt sound right get on
get it tested
there will be some extra noise with the gearbox but if your not sure ask haas
vibrations will kill you machine and it is not cheap to fix if your out of warrenty

[Geof]

I'm using Rego-Fix ER-32 collet holders which are supposedly balanced to 22,000 RPMs.

The machine just doesn't quite sound right at all RPMs. It just becomes more noticeable as you get above 6000 RPM or so. It gets better as it runs longer (or maybe my ears just become more accustomed to it).

I have a feeling for what you mean. Definitely the noise varies with speed which I think is a resonance and definitely your ears are not a reliable detector because they do habituate.

All you can do is get the tech in to check it out; if the machine is under warranty this is what they should do whenever you ask. Although maybe I have a bit of extra clout with my Haas dealer having bought seventeen machines and asked for a quote on number eighteen today.

I mentioned the Super Mini that was noisy; I have a new VF2 that is still under warranty and some mornings it makes a really funny noise during Warm Up. It seems to be temperature dependent and does not happen every day. My plan is to monitor it very closely when the machine is about two months away from the end of the warranty and if it is still doing it get the dealer in to start looking at things.

[serviceman]

150 degrees f on the inside of the taper is the cutoff then haas says that spindle is hot. if the machine is under warranty then you should just run it till it dies run it overnight at max rpm if you come in the morning and the spindle is seized then you get a new one. then they will have to verify oil flow and make sure everything is good on the new spindle

[Geof]

150 degrees f on the inside of the taper is the cutoff then haas says that spindle is hot....

This is 65 degrees C and is hot enough that you can touch it for a short period of time but it will not burn you; that is the type of temperature I was meaning in my first post.

I am not sure I agree with serviceman's advise. Yes, you might learn that the spindle can run overnight without problems, or you might learn that it cannot. Coming in next morning to a pile of smoking scrap is not very helpful toward diagnosing the underlying problem.

[serviceman]

the spindle should cool down by the morning and break in or it will fail. if the machine is under warranty why not let the hfo handle it. the spindle bearings are rated for something like 220 degrees farenheit and i have been given this advise by numerous factory personnel in the past. if the machine is out of warranty then i would start looking for problems in the oil flow or belt tension etc.

[serviceman]

or you can run the run in program and monitor the spindle temp and start the program from the beginning if the temperature rises above 150 and continue to do this until the temperature settles down.

[Geof]

or you can run the run in program and monitor the spindle temp and start the program from the beginning if the temperature rises above 150 and continue to do this until the temperature settles down.

Which is what I advised a few posts up; second or third post; as suggested to me by a Haas engineer.

I agree that you can run it unattended either to success or failure; my point is that you do not learn anything doing this. Any person, factory rep or otherwise, who suggested this type of procedure to me for my machines would never set foot in my shop again.

[serviceman]

i've seen a lot of bad spindles come from the factory and if the spindle is going to fail better it fail 2 months in then 16 months in

[engine tech art]

I have been running 1 hour program for 2 weeks at 5000 -6000 RPM
at first the spindle got a little hot ran the runin program and was stll hot.
Also the tool was stiking at a change. So i added 2 flex coolant hoses
and splash coolat at the spindle at the front and back solved the problem
cool spindle and no sticking at all 2 birds with one stone.
If you look at the ec400 it has 4 coolant nosels around the spindle it
is jacketed in coolant I have 2000 VFOE and a 202 minimill.

Art

[HaasTech83]

I recently installed 8 new machines with 15k spindles, about half of them had trouble staying cool during the intial run-in program. This is not rare. If it reaches 150* F it fails, i let it cool then run the run-in program once again. If it gets hot once more i let it cool and bump the spindle air pressure to 30 and run the spindle run-in program once again. Some machines work great from the factory and some need a little help. It really depends on how much oil has settled in the spindle. You can can see the access oil dripping from the spindle most of the time. You can run into this if you go a while with out running the machine, say over a weekend.

Replacement Spindles are usually going to get hot in the intial run-in. They sit on a box for months horizontally, and are usually filled with too much oil, to prevent rust. This oil causes heat to build up.

Runnning at 10k for 5 hours or so you should expect the spindle to get warm, but if its around 150* F then worry about it.

Make sure you reduce the spindle air pressure when you are done running the spindle in, you won't be getting enough oil.

[Kool Parts]

First thing is get or borrow a temp gun. That way you know what you are talking about. When it comes to a warranty situation with any product you will need good documentation and facts.
You just got it so there is no dispute there but it would be nice to know what temp it is now and 1 month from now and more importantly 364 days, 23 hours, and 59 min from when you got it...:cheers:

[Cory]

Is there a duty cycle for running your spindle at 10k?

Yesterday and today I ran my machine at pretty much 10k for 8 hours each day, with perhaps 10 minutes between cycles. I stopped cutting last night, because the spindle was hot to the point where it became painful to keep my hand on it.

After the cycle ended and the coolant was off, the toolholder was acting as a heatsink, and had probably heated up to ~100*F.

I'm positive this is unrelated to any defects in the spindle--it doesn't get hot until it's been running at high speeds for an extended length of time. I just don't want to run it nonstop at 10k and find out that it's not rated for continuous use and my warranty is voided if it eventually fails.