[handlewanker]

Dynosor, the whole point of the Ethanol hype is to get a viable alternative to oil on the way.

Now that someone has given the green light and indicated that this is good, the farmers are bending over backwards to convert the food producing lands to corn growing, nothing to do with global warming, but sheer economics, but now the price of corn is skyrocketing and that makes Ethanol a joke as a replacement fuel.

When the ball started rolling the corn was being sold as food and on that cost structure the conversion factor was costed, but down the track there crept in a lot of side issues that had to be addressed in the only way money borrowers know how, and that is to pass the cost onto the consumer, commonly known as inflation.

The farmers took out big loans for land aquisition and bigger and more sophisticated tractors etc, plus they now had to buy huge stocks of seed to actually get the corn, which originated from the corn seed growers who pushed the price up in anticipaton of a rich harvest, based on the envisaged returns that the investment gurus were screaming about.

This pushed the cost of the end product up, so now the Ethanol is costing more to produce.

All of a sudden the miracle on Wall street is looking to be a mill stone around the farmers necks, especially when it becomes obvious that there is a product they have sweated and worked to produce that looks like might not even get off the ground, (Pun intended).

So what to do with all this overproduction of now overpriced wheat?

Sell it to the Chinese! What brilliant thinking, but they no fooley, bl##dy plice too high.

Bubble burst, end of story, don't mention corn at the food table, not while scrag end of meat being gnawed on.
Ian.

[NinerSevenTango]

What Mariss said, x 2. The noise is getting past the filter and attempts to point it out are being filtered.

The point has been made and backed with evidence that the science has been fudged, the thermometers are giving the fudged numbers the lie, the ice is growing, and the motivation behind the scam is to advance communism blended with fascism.

Those who are already committed to communism and fascism will not be swayed by appeals to reason nor evidence, even when the evidence is that they are winning, and the disappearing platform from which they speak is sinking under their own success.

The man who earns his way by free trade with others and would consider it an unspeakable defilement to have to subsist off the goods produced by others, especially if those goods are confiscated by force, is a disappearing breed; outnumbered, outvoted and shunned, taxed and regulated and threatened into submission and silence.

The enviro-fascists are winning. Their agenda is advancing on a thousand fronts, by thousands of regulations, taxes, and subsidies. The coming cap-and-trade scheme is simply the final consolidation of power, the means of concentrating influence so that the energy spigot can be controlled by a single lever. The population has accepted the arguments and has no objection, and so cannot resist the logical extension of them. Just as witch doctors controlled the tribe with voodoo, western man will be controlled through his ignorance by the few who figure a way to seize the reins of power, only this time backed with pervasive surveillance and overwhelming destructive power. It doesn't matter which form of energy gets used or what the weather does. The point is, you need energy to live, and somebody else is going to restrict your access to it.

When an individual concedes the value of the herd as superior to the value of some individual, he unwittingly pronounces a death sentence on the ownership of his own life. When those without the equipment to make such distinctions can be made dependent on the state, and enough of them can be dulled into acceptance of promises that the state will confiscate the goods of others to feed them, then all that remains to watch is the decline of the few remaining producers and the rise of tyranny.

This is an old game and has been played out many times. Man is taught to value some superior entity over his own worth as an individual, and the concept is smuggled into the mind with appeals to altruism. Whether it is some god or church, the downtrodden worker, some starving masses somewhere, the fatherland, mother nature, some bug somewhere, or polar bears, the end result will always be the same for a society of individuals that renounce their own worth -- impoverishment and eventually slavery and genocide. Our brief experiment with freedom is coming to an end. A bright spark, that raised man out of the mud for an instant, is being quenched by the same kind of ignorance that held him down for his entire previous history.

If a few seeds are to remain to be planted in the ashes of our civilization, let these be among them: Never let parasites educate your children, and recognize altruism as the thought-virus that tricks you into surrendering your life. Parasites, in order to have any self esteem at all, must by definition harbor hatred for those that feed them, and cannot foresee what will happen if they succeed at destroying their host.

It doesn't really matter how many flood victims come clamoring to America's shores, looking to be fed and housed. America's plenty has been squandered, and she has no surplus to give. There won't even be room at the collective farms for them by the time they arrive.

There's no point in trying to argue about the policies of America's 'leaders' with the few remaining informed victims. Only those who stay within the prescribed bounds are even allowed to be considered for 'leadership'. The last few producers are looking in vain for some shining light of freedom to escape to, some other place in the world to live free. Those who don't mind compromise have already fled. The capitalist is finding disappearing markets and ever fewer remaining honest traders to do business with.

Go ahead and point ridicule at the capitalist who feeds you, if gloating is your purpose. Your kind rides high while the looting phase goes on. When the loot is gone, and nobody is producing more, only the masters at the top of the food chain still eat - the true believers that helped them get there are sacrificed next without a thought, since at that point they are only more unproductive mouths to feed.

The times, they are a-changin. The questions the statists must ask themselves as the world heads into an economic depression are:

Will you be at the top of the food chain as the ultimate parasite? Will your comfortable haven be safe? Are your locked-in benefits immune to bankruptcy of the system? Are you a master, or just a helpful beggar? Can you extend your usefulness by acting as a Quisling? How secure is your connection to political power, really?

That's my troll for the day.

--97T--

[Geof]

....This is a lose lose situation. If I dont moderate, I am asked were are you. If I do moderate, one side squeals its not fair....

I'm sorry Benny, I wasn't really squealing, more just putting in a dig. Maybe I should be more liberal with the smilies; I know you cannot moderate every post.


ON TOPIC:

It turns out when the correct data is put in at least one Climate Model it predicts cooling not warming. There was an account in the National Post yesterday about some German guy doing this.

[NinerSevenTango]

Point By Point:

Dynosor, the whole point of the Ethanol hype is to get a viable alternative to oil on the way.

Can't work, it takes too much oil to make the ethanol.

Now that someone has given the green light and indicated that this is good,

No, they didn't. They imposed huge subsidies to agribusiness and individual farmers. And required it to be mixed with gasoline at the pump, with subsidies there, too.

the farmers are bending over backwards to convert the food producing lands to corn growing, nothing to do with global warming, but sheer economics,

The subsidies skew the market so that if they don't they get left behind. Way behind. Just like people who saved cash instead of borrowing during the housing bubble on the upswing.

but now the price of corn is skyrocketing

The subsidies combined with an influx of printed paper dollars at the rate of over 15% per year along with the collapse of the housing and financial industry bubbles has caused investors to flee into commodities. The piling on has created a bubble in commodities, corn would be zooming without the subsidy, the diversion of one third of it to waste as ethanol only multiplies the effect.

and that makes Ethanol a joke as a replacement fuel.

No, the fact that it is wasteful of energy makes it a joke. The economic displacement was warned about ahead of time, and tax pigs went ahead and imposed it anyway.

When the ball started rolling the corn was being sold as food and on that cost structure the conversion factor was costed,

Costed by who? Anybody with a high school education knew that the cost of ethanol is determined by the cost of the energy (oil) it takes to grow the crops and process the yield. It was apparent from miles away that the scheme is a tax and stock swindle.

but down the track there crept in a lot of side issues

Such as simple, predictable market dynamics.

that had to be addressed in the only way money borrowers know how, and that is to pass the cost onto the consumer,

As opposed to, say, giving your product away for less than your cost? Or something? What?

commonly known as inflation.

Are you appealing to common ignorance here, with the word 'commonly'? Because it is arguable that most people are kept ignorant of the fact that inflation is a monetary phenomenon, and is by definition expansion of the money supply beyond expansion of production, nowadays done with a printing press or the press of a button on a computer. But you, surely, could not have missed the link a few pages back to the little video that explains the phenomenon explicitly. And as it is arguable that readers here have viewed it as well, who are you arguing to with this little slip? Rising prices are not necessarily inflation, but inflation always inevitably results in rising prices. In other words, blaming inflation on high prices is a lie -- the high prices are a result of inflation, and always after a delay, when people have to raise prices after realizing that they have been swindled out of their profit margins yet again by fake money.

The farmers took out big loans for land aquisition and bigger and more sophisticated tractors etc, plus they now had to buy huge stocks of seed to actually get the corn, which originated from the corn seed growers who pushed the price up in anticipaton of a rich harvest, based on the envisaged returns that the investment gurus were screaming about.

Not just the investment gurus, but the market prices. This is classic bubble behavior, and the root cause of it is money pumping by the central counterfeiter, err bank, and all that money bidding up prices in whatever seems safe this week. The uptrend reinforces the behavior, and more and more investors pile on. The subsidies multiply the effect.

This pushed the cost of the end product up, so now the Ethanol is costing more to produce.

It's worse than that. The cost of the energy to make the ethanol has recently tripled, too. So even huge subsidies on the sale of ethanol at the pump can't make it economical.

All of a sudden the miracle on Wall street is looking to be a mill stone around the farmers necks, especially when it becomes obvious that there is a product they have sweated and worked to produce that looks like might not even get off the ground, (Pun intended).

If they can time it right and pay off debts with whatever windfall they make while the bubble is expanding, they can make out like bandits. If they think the bubble will expand forever, like buyers and banks in the housing bubble did, they will get caught short when the bubble inevitably collapses.

So what to do with all this overproduction of now overpriced wheat?

Wheat? What? When the bubble peaks, the overpriced food will rot in silos while we all go hungry. And a goodly amount of it will be confiscated from the taxpayers to save the farmers, and sent to starving masses in a country where the people hate us, while we go hungry here.

Sell it to the Chinese! What brilliant thinking, but they no fooley, bl##dy plice too high.

Is that a racist slur? The Chinese will be buying up American assets at bargain basement prices with their huge pile of depreciating dollar reserves. They might even end up owning the government. Better not piss them off.

Bubble burst, end of story, don't mention corn at the food table, not while scrag end of meat being gnawed on.
Ian.

The idiocy of corn as fuel goes a lot further than that. The extra corn displaces other crops. The diversion of food for fuel makes feed for animals scarce. The price for all foodstuffs rises. People switch from the expensive food to cheaper foods. Those other foods rise in price. Soon, poor people around the world begin to starve. The beneficial, all-knowing hand of government interference and regulation has shown its value. People are becoming restive. Better start a war with Iran to give them something else to think about. The bottom line is, no idiot politician knows what fuel is better for anyone to use than the user himself or the producer. And any interference must be done with force, and must involve prying somebody's wealth out of their hands. It can only cause damage, and the damage is inevitable. The damage has gone on for so long that it cannot be hidden by increases in productivity, and the effects will from now on be much more severe and apparent. In response, yet more interference and control will be demanded, and gotten. Your victory is almost complete.

--97T--
I thought I'd parse one, just for the fun of it. Now I suppose I'll go produce some more value to be confiscated so that we can give it to the tyrants ruling over Burma, the better to brutally crush their people under the heel of their dictatorship. See? I'm doing my part, too.

[fizzissist]

I'm still waiting to see the substantiation of "sudden" sea level rise.

What? There isn't any?

Btw, the model that predicted cooling was no more accurate than those that predict warming. The models don't work.

[Geof]

....Btw, the model that predicted cooling was no more accurate than those that predict warming. The models don't work.

Ssshhh! Don't say that when it shows what we want people to believe. Have you learnt nothing from the other side.

[martinw]

I just stumbled on this article by John Brignell about Global warming, science and religion.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

IMVHO, it's worth a read if you have not done so already.

Best wishes,

Martin

[handlewanker]

NSTango, do you think people are fools?

The moment anything looks like gaining in the market it's "ready steady go man go" and to hell with tomorrow.

The attitude is if you don't get in on the ground floor you'll be paying through your nose by the time you reach the top.

Here's an example of maximising your efforts, I bought a house in UK in 1970 for 4000 pounds and sold it in 1980 for 24,000 pounds and today in 2008 that house is currently on the market at 250,000 pounds, 38 years span, do the sums.

The farmers will push the price of the corn up because they can and must, and when they top out, better get a big wagon because they'll be giving it away.

Mankind generally and on the whole is an opportunist, those that are not are leaches and only survive by living off the backs of those that had the balls to extend themselves and go the extra yard.

If you want to judge anything, look at the track record, it speaks volumes if you can interpret it.

That's the whole point, interpretation.

Where you're coming from the political arena is your forum with you at the mercy of the crowd. I'll clarify this for your benefit, you are at the beck and call of the ruling authority, be it for their benefit or to keep you under control.
Can't have the tumbrils rumbling in the streets again can we.

At this moment in time you will be looking in anticipation to a new leadership for your salvation, but all they are doing is playing musical chairs, and as the coffers are empty and the well gone dry, they are even now remortgaging your future having spent your children's inheritence on grandiose schemes that even a blind man wouldn't touch, so that they will at least be able to stuff their mattresses with the green paper that is being churned out endlessly.

I watched the Al Gore program on TV last night and was struck by the genuine concern of all the countries he visited that were agreeing with him, and there wasn't one person with a placard to dispute the facts. (they must have known he was there).

As for global warming, you haven't the knowledge to interpret the facts even if they were piled up on your doorstep knee deep, that is the arena of the true scientist, and they will not give a cast iron guarantee that tomorrow the sun will shine and the spring is going to come early if at all this year, rather they will give an opinion based upon a carefull analysis of the data, and it is up to the likes of you to dispute them.

The waters are going to rise, to say otherwise is pure ignorence, but when the level becomes too much to tolerate you had better have made the decision to move to higher ground, (get rid of that beach front property now), before the high ground is gobbled up by the speculators who are at this very moment mapping out the best areas with the highest potential profit margin, gonna be a scramble, because the refugees from the low lying areas of the Pacific Rim are going to be there also.

BTW Inflation always starts with the rise in price of the commodity, to be able to buy the commodity the buyer demands and gets more wages that pushes the prices up with a demand for more wages.

NEVER, and I repeat NEVER has the wages ever pushed the prices up first.

Trade union battles were ALWAYS fought on the declining value of the wages that were forced up to match the rising prices.

When wages were increased it was ALWAYS never more than the rate the inflation had eroded the buying power of the wages.
Ian.

[CNC_Programmer]

I just stumbled on this article by John Brignell about Global warming, science and religion.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

IMVHO, it's worth a read if you have not done so already.

Best wishes,

Martin

Great read, Martin. Really puts things in perspective.

[fizzissist]

...As for global warming, you haven't the knowledge to interpret the facts even if they were piled up on your doorstep knee deep, that is the arena of the true scientist...

Funny. Coming from a guy who can't comprehend simple vectors, posting in a CNC forum where, as we all know, knowing the difference between +Z and -Z can be fairly important....as an example....

He says Hawaii might break off and fall into the sea. That would be, by my humble calculations, a case of Hawaii making a -Z move, in stark contrast to the sea level making a "sudden" +Z move.

Then he goes on to suggest that he understands the science, but we don't. His assumptions, based on the scientifically flawed AIT movie and what he reads in Newsweek are somehow correct, and that I don't understand the actual science.

I really hate to break this to ya, but while I don't understand some of the science (because it's not my field), I do understand some of the other science.

So you say I don't have the knowledge to interpret the facts even if they're piled knee deep? Well, they are piled knee deep where I work, and I've got enough knowledge to make a comprehensive assessment.

Ian, you repeatedly say that none of us have that knowledge, but requesting the most simple proof or scientifically based evidence results in nothing more from you than a rambling off-topic typing spree.

Sea levels rising?
Assessment of the reliability of climate predictions based on comparisons with historical time series
by Koutsoyiannis, D., N. Mamassis, A. Christofides, A. Efstratiadis, and S.M. Papalexiou, Assessment of the reliability of climate predictions based on comparisons with historical time series, European Geosciences Union General Assembly 2008, Geophysical Research Abstracts, Vol. 10, Vienna, 09074, European Geosciences Union, 2008.

Just cut to the chase and read the conclusion. That's not even over the head of a competent high school student.

[fizzissist]

I just stumbled on this article by John Brignell about Global warming, science and religion.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

IMVHO, it's worth a read if you have not done so already.

Best wishes,

Martin

Martin, that is a great article. I'd seen it and bookmarked it late last year....Glad you posted the link!

[dufas]

The moment anything looks like gaining in the market it's "ready steady go man go" and to hell with tomorrow.


At this moment in time you will be looking in anticipation to a new leadership for your salvation, but all they are doing is playing musical chairs, and as the coffers are empty and the well gone dry, they are even now remortgaging your future having spent your children's inheritence on grandiose schemes that even a blind man wouldn't touch, so that they will at least be able to stuff their mattresses with the green paper that is being churned out endlessly.

The waters are going to rise, to say otherwise is pure ignorence, but when the level becomes too much to tolerate you had better have made the decision to move to higher ground, (get rid of that beach front property now), before the high ground is gobbled up by the speculators who are at this very moment mapping out the best areas with the highest potential profit margin, gonna be a scramble, because the refugees from the low lying areas of the Pacific Rim are going to be there also.

Ian.

Dufas's daughter here.....

So, since everything is at a loss and there is no future at all, the advice that you gave for me to continue on with school was just a patronizing comment, not really given in earnest...

It was announced on the radio this morning that an Australian scientist wants to inject sulfur dioxide into the earth's atmosphere to induce global cooling in order to stop global warming. I am just a stupid sophomore in high school and I know that this idiotic plan would create a sulfuric acid atmosphere and toxic acid rainfall polluting everything beyond imagination. What kind of scientists are running this show anyway.

I am thinking that my original plan of action was correct. School is a waste. There is no hope for any future. If the weather don't destroy us, the scientists will.

Melinda...........

[fizzissist]

Dufas' Daughter...
Before you believe all hope is lost, and that scientists are all stupid and want to screw with mother nature (and ALWAYS with unintended consequence, usually bad), please consider that many scientists do NOT want to inject iron into the oceans or acid into the air.

Only those with a vested interest in selling the iron or the acid will benefit.

Here's a list of scientists just in the U.S. who have signed a petition opposing this whole AGW nonsense....

http://www.petitionproject.org/gwdat..._Last_Name.php

I personally know no less than 6 of these people that have PhDs and are actual scientists. One of them I work with and is an atmospheric physicist.

All hope is not lost!

[martinw]

Dear Fizzissist and CNC Programmer,

Yes, I thought it was a spectacularly well-written piece too. What a guy!

Best wishes,

Martin

[Geof]

Dufas' Daughter...
Before you believe all hope is lost,...All hope is not lost!

I don't know any atmospheric scientists, only one Geophysicist with a specialty in Glaciology and she thinks it is crock too.

I will second fizzis' comment; hang in there. There a good scientists and bad scientists just like in any walk of life. Complete all your education and add to the number of good ones.

[dynosor]

NSTango, do you think people are fools?

Only some of them.


I thought 97T's posts show amazing insight and are very clearly written. Such a post would take me several hours to write, if I could do it at all. Yet 97T cranks them out like it is nothing. The secret to his skill is using the minimum number of words to make a specific point based on facts and logic.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...postcount=3202

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...postcount=3204

[fizzissist]

Geof,
I'd be interested in your glaciologist friend's opinion on Richard Alley...
On one hand he makes the argument for AGW with melting glaciers as proof (see National Geographic TV), yet he has also stated (as I've mentioned in other posts) that climate can change radically in terms of less than a decade just within natural variability. His own research shows it.

Back in 2006 Alley was asked if he could tell the average temperature 1000 years ago to within 0.5 degree C? Alley's response? "No."

So much for paleoclimatology.

[Geof]

Geof,
I'd be interested in your glaciologist friend's opinion on Richard Alley...

...So much for paleoclimatology.

I will ask, or I will try to remember to ask, getting old these days you know.

Don't dismiss paleoclimatology; some stuff correlates so well it is difficult to deny a link. I was reading somewhere about the good correlation between Be9 and Be10 ratios and historic records of warm and cold episodes such as the Medieval Optimum and Little Ice Age; Old Sol is definitely doing something subtle.

Now here is something for you to think about, if I can get my point across clear enough.

You have seen the nice saw tooth, but ever increasing, CO2 profile that Gore makes so much of.

The seasonal oscillations supposedly show the seasonal growth and decay in the Northern Hemisphere, although I think it should be more correctly phrased as the net difference between north and south with the north having more land area so the north seasonal variation predominates.

The variation is smallish; if you take the upward slope as being due to fossil fuel CO2 (note the if), then the variation is not much different to the annual increase.

Surely this variation can be considered an indicator of plant growth, i.e. maximum potential biofuel production per year. Which says to me that if every bit of annual plant growth over the whole Northern Hemisphere was converted to biofuel at 100% efficiency it would barely substitute for annual fossil fuel consumption.

[martinw]

Dufas's daughter here.....

School is a waste. There is no hope for any future.

Melinda...........

Dear Melinda,

IMVVHO, the purpose of any education is to teach people how to think for themselves . It has very little to do with stuffing them with facts or training them to have particular opinions.

You seem to be thinking for yourself pretty well, so maybe your education is worth sticking with. I think so.

BTW, there is hope for the future.

Best wishes,

Martin

[fizzissist]

.....I typed a big ole reply to Geof and somethin' fell on my keyboard from the stack of crap on my desk (forgot what they call that critical angle...) and somehow it got lost....oh well.
In a nutshell....

O18 is a common denominator, as it's a measure of climate in ice cores and corals both.

One of Alley's older studies showed a temp increase in the Greenland ice sheet of ~15degC from the last ice age to the Holocene, and what I thought was interesting was that increase was at least 3 times higher than the increase in the tropics. Looks to me like the tropics do absorb the heat, and the poles release it.

Funny you mention the land mass difference between hemispheres, I've been looking at that lately. Also been noting the shifts in temps between them, with the southern seeming to be getting cooler as the northern pole appears to be warming.

Now with a volcano in Chile adding to the unknown variables, it'll be interesting to see what cooling is observed down there, if anything measurable.

Looking at the SST distribution of the Indian Ocean for the months of Jan, Feb, and March of this year there's a cooling trend ....hard to get a good sea level rise without that good ole thermal expansion when ya need it.