[automizer]

I am wondering what everyone thinks about hand code vs useing a CAD package. I have be told that hand code is in the past and dosen't need to be learnt and I have been told that with out knowing how its done behind the sences you really don't know whats going on.

Thoughts?

[Switcher]

It would depend on the job your doing. Myself, I love to write the code by hand. Thats the most interesting part of CNC!

I chose hand code in your Poll, only because I like the thought of being able to control everything I do, in my programs. Don't get me wrong, CAD has its place.

I think everyone that runs CNC, should be able to at least, write simple programs, by hand.

[wjbzone]

Depends on:
-How much time it takes to hand code
-How much time it takes to CAM.
-Time to make Shop floor modifications vs Re-posting and re-transfering.

Also consider:
-Once you make a shop floor modification do you want to modify the CAM to match?
-If you make SF modifications and don't modify the CAM, you loose the benefit of the changes on future CAM programming. (Revisions and similar work)

Personally, I do a combination, initial program on CAM. Modify code as necessary on SF. Re-program on CAM only when too involved to do on SF. Insert the new CAM code into the as-modified SF program on a computer using a backplotter program to verify. Save As-Run programs after job is completed.
Bill

[HuFlungDung]

Even if you cannot be bothered to hand write it ( I don't most of the time), it is necessary to be able to read gcode and understand what a CAM system has generated for you. Like, I understand what arc center coordinates mean, but I hate figuring them out

Understanding gcode also pays off in understanding how to configure a post processor to generate the correct syntax of code for a particular controller.

I'm kinda glad I cut my 'cnc teeth' on old Bobcad Gold, because it made me pay attention and learn to carefully proof-read the programs It seemed great at the time, and to avoid doing hand programming was my first real incentive to even get a computer in the first place.

[championp]

This is the order in which I learned, and I think it is a good foundation for being a machinist or cnc programmer.

1.Learn to operate vertical mill, lathe, drill press, grinder, saws etc. This lets you see and "feel" and hear what's happening when metal is being cut.

2.Learn to set up and operate the cnc machine that you're going to use.

3.Learn to program the basics (tool changes, drill cycles, cutter comp, pockets, profiling, mdi etc.)

4.Then get into cam.


Just my opinion,
Chris

[CrashedFadal]

Both obviously have their advantages, with hand coding you have total control over how your program flows. But at the same time, CAM programs make programming complex parts easier and faster than hand coding.

Jon

[Chris Welton]

I'm not "allowed" to hand code the machines that I program, but that hasn't stopped me from learning about G and M codes and their underlying functions. I strongly feel that those who see a CAD/CAM system as a magical black box solution are missing out on a lot of important knowledge. I also don't understand how they have a chance in heck of being able to diagnose a problem when something goes wrong.

[CNCRob]

I do mostly cad unless its just moving a few holes or a simple line cut.

[Heavy D]

I program mostly by hand as I do a lot of parametric programming. I've only made 1 program entirley from CAM and I had no problems with the program...it was just very long. Now if I have a complex profile on a part, I'll do just the profile with CAM and throw it in my program.. I also do programs for high volume production and use a lot of variables,system variables in the programs for safety, pallet/tool identification, tool life and to make offseting more user friendly for the operators..

I have one program that can run 3 part families with 82 different part numbers. The only thing the operator needs to change are rings on the fixture and enter the part number in a variable. the program does the rest... CAM could not write such a program so they both have their place...

[jonbanquer]

Even if you cannot be bothered to hand write it ( I don't most of the time), it is necessary to be able to read gcode and understand what a CAM system has generated for you. Like, I understand what arc center coordinates mean, but I hate figuring them out

Understanding gcode also pays off in understanding how to configure a post processor to generate the correct syntax of code for a particular controller.

I'm kinda glad I cut my 'cnc teeth' on old Bobcad Gold, because it made me pay attention and learn to carefully proof-read the programs It seemed great at the time, and to avoid doing hand programming was my first real incentive to even get a computer in the first place.

Hu,

I loved the CAD end of BobCADCAM when it was DOS. The CAM end sucked. The CAD part of the program was freaking brilliant because you didn't have to use the mouse ! I never hear people say how good the DOS CAD end was. Maybe I was the only one who loved using it. No mouse required most of the time. I even liked most of the UI.

Something happened on the CAD end with the move to Windows. What a freaking mess it is now.

In any case, being able to understand the code at the machine and edit when you have problems is a critical job skill, AFAIC.

When my mind is deep in the code and I'm standing at the machine editing or creating a program I can see the tool in my mind as cuts the part. I'm like in another world.

jon


"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[Bloy2004]

What a freaking mess it is now.

nice productive statement from last poster....guess who.



I think that knowing both hand and cad are essential.... some simpler programing is now done just by opening up a text file.....and writing...I can't say that for complexities though.
All depends if you are enjoying it ..or need to get a job done within a time constraint.
In short they both come in handy

[automizer]

all this talk about hand code as beeing good is not how I saw this thread going when I started it. But this has given me the eye opener I was looking for. I have had one small introduction to hand code and that is as far as any of the schools around me will take it. I have tried to read books on the topic bu you can only go so far. Can someone tell me where I can find tutorials on using hand code so I can try and get a better grasp on this greatly under estimated skill

[jonbanquer]

all this talk about hand code as beeing good is not how I saw this thread going when I started it. But this has given me the eye opener I was looking for. I have had one small introduction to hand code and that is as far as any of the schools around me will take it. I have tried to read books on the topic bu you can only go so far. Can someone tell me where I can find tutorials on using hand code so I can try and get a better grasp on this greatly under estimated skill

How about finding some prints and trying to create the code to machine the part ? Download NC Plot (See the NC Plot Forum on CNCZone) and use NC Plot to verify your code. No better way to learn than creating G code hands on with a print and a way to verify what your creating.

NC Plot is still in beta and is free to use while it's still in beta.

When you get stuck post the print and where your having a problem creating the G code to machine that feature of the part.

jon

"I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." ... Jimmy Hoffa

[Geof]

I came back to this thread and saw this:

"When my mind is deep in the code and I'm standing at the machine editing or creating a program I can see the tool in my mind as cuts the part. I'm like in another world.

jon"

And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?

[jonbanquer]

"And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?"

It certainly takes me awhile to get back to where my mind was when this happens. In better shops people know when not to bother you. When this happens on a frequent basis it's a good sign that perhaps one should move on.

jon

[dertsap]

try explaining to the boss that you just ate a new 3in facemill and a $5000 piece of titanium material because you can t understand g code , mastercam and gibbs are the best but i ve seen them spit out crap that shouldn t be there , best way to learn this automizer is to maybe download a cad/cam demo (most have save diabled but fully work ) draw a part and single block every line to see where the tool is going and what it is doing , other than standing next to a machine single blocking , this will give you a better understanding than most books will , proved you know what each g code does , g code overall is pretty much generic to most machines , and for the most part your only using a handfull of codes , rapid , feed , interpolate , drill cycles , d comps ,
start with small simple programs
here is a free editor http://www.betatechnical.com/autonc.htm

free simulator http://www.cncsimulator.com/
there are loads of free and good demo software out there to help ,just look it up on google

[dertsap]

I came back to this thread and saw this:





And don't you just love when some ninny comes up and disturbs you so your train of thought runs off the tracks?

funny thinking about some ninny throwing you off , a coupla days ago i was working on the horizontal trying to set it up , and this guy is at my machine and cannot understand to shut up
and here i am in mdi wanting to simply move b- 90. and i punched b 90. about 4 to 5 times and he says why do you keep doing that , and i turned around and said it s because you won t shut up while i m trying to consentrate ,he finally shut up and left me alone , he is a good guy but MAN some people just don t get it, i here you when you say , being in another world , it s all a process , and 100% focus

[swarfmacdaddy]

Its like music. Playing by ear is good, but you will limit yourself if you dont learn to sight read. I tell everyone get a copy of " The cnc workbook" By Frank Nanfaro,Tony Uccello and Derek Murphy. Addison Wesley Publishing Company. I struggled forever until i got this book, Its gives the most clear examples of coding you will find anywhere. With great visuals for every command. iI your like me and you need visuals to learn,this book cant be beat!!

[Bowman]

I think you need to be able to hand code as others have said so you can read and edit it, troubleshoot etc. In college CAM the first class was one program by hand then one like part in CAM on and on the whole semester getting more and more complex with each new part. This was especially fun when going back and forth between hand writing lathe and mill code. If your interested in CAM I would recommend this way of doing it as you can visualize better in your mind what your doing in CAM or should I say what the CAM is/should be doing.

With the hand or CAM coding 100% focus is absolutely required as is the setup and all ops leading up to the actual cutting otherwise your likely to fubar something up. My wife calls it a zone CNC Zone perhaps. However, I am like that whenever in deep thought trying to focus concentration on what I am doing with most anything.

When you can visualize what the cutter should be doing in your mind line by line of code you can make the cutter go where you want easily and you can keep it from going where you don't. If you can't read code and you get issues when cutting even if you know what line of code the error came from you may not understand what about it is causing the problem.

So I say do both especially anyone totally new to CNC and if your new to machining in general learn manual at least a little first while working on learning to code. Its a lot like CAD in that you likely drew something by hand before over your life or at least have a rough sketch of your idea now before you sit down infront of the big empty screen.

Should you really want a challenge try to hand code the word "Successfully" as text using a cursive script When you get into multiple arc segments joined to make a curve thats a LOT of arcs lilttle itty bitty ones.

[b_bengineer]

I have 25 years in machining, I used to punch and read paper tape, I am now programming using MasterCam. But ............ I am very thankful that I programmed by hand first and now "know" what is going on when I read the code in the machine controller. Just like Engineering, the best Mechanical Engineer is going to be the guy who gets his hands dirty on a shop floor for a few years before he starts designing parts.