[R.DesJardin]

Did all of the work to make a tool changer for the Tormach cease?
I haven't seen anything about it recently. I realize it's not actually the changer but the locking of the tool holder in that is the hiccup. So what's up?

[sharpshooter90]

Did all of the work to make a tool changer for the Tormach cease?
I haven't seen anything about it recently. I realize it's not actually the changer but the locking of the tool holder in that is the hiccup. So what's up?

The idea was essentially stillborn from the beginning. Even when the designer announced its availability, it was nothing more than a tool holder device. The key element was the automatic drawbar, which was not perfected or tested. Besides having been designed for a specific machine, which severely limited the potential market, the entire concept was impractical for the chosen market. In an economic climate where people were re-financing their homes to take cruise ship vacations, there would have been those who would spend 3-4000.00 just to watch this thing change a tool by itself. But in 2009, the reality is that its far more practical to put a pause in the program and spend 30 seconds to change the tool by hand. Beyond that, any mechanism like that will not be perfected until 100 units are in the field, so the first guys out will spend far more time working on the the thing than it saves in run time.

[R.DesJardin]

Well my problem is I need 4-7 tools to make my parts, some of the machine time is only 30-60sec(center drilling and drilling). If I can't walk away from the machine for more than a minute or two then I need a tool changer. Parts would be cheaper to make because I would be doing something else instead of standing at the machine. Several thousand dollars for a 10 tool changer in my opinion is not out of line since I spent $18,000+ from Tormach with all I bought, I easily could have spent several thousand more on additional tooling and probably eventually will. If I get too much busier I'll have to spend another chunk of change on a Haas Minimill I guess.

[sharpshooter90]

Well my problem is I need 4-7 tools to make my parts, some of the machine time is only 30-60sec(center drilling and drilling). If I can't walk away from the machine for more than a minute or two then I need a tool changer. Parts would be cheaper to make because I would be doing something else instead of standing at the machine. Several thousand dollars for a 10 tool changer in my opinion is not out of line since I spent $18,000+ from Tormach with all I bought, I easily could have spent several thousand more on additional tooling and probably eventually will. If I get too much busier I'll have to spend another chunk of change on a Haas Minimill I guess.

You may be right about the Haas Mini Mill. It sounds like you are at the stage where you need production capabilities. Haas could supply you a machine with a proven tool changer system. As I said before, the Tormach unit would be a work in progress, forcing you to constantly monitor your machine.

[titchener]

If your parts are small enough, make fixtures to mount as many as you can on the table, then run all the first tool ops on all of them, etc. If you can fit a lot of parts on it really cuts down on the tool changes.

Paul T.

[PoppaBear10]

R.DesJardin,

Have to disagree with Sharpshooter, the ATC I designed did work for 3/8" DOC, but people here wanted 1" DOC like the videos, to do that I had to redesign the head. This added another 1000 to the price tag. To produce, Warrenty, service, market etc. the device was getting into a price range that was unsutainable for the Tormach. I sold the ATC and IP to a Tiwanese company, for them to bring to market on a different type of machine, with some mechanical/electrical and programming mods of course.

scott

[R.DesJardin]

If your parts are small enough, make fixtures to mount as many as you can on the table, then run all the first tool ops on all of them, etc. If you can fit a lot of parts on it really cuts down on the tool changes.

Paul T.

Well yes I have that in the plan next already. But some of my parts are to big to do that, hence the need for a tool changer.

scott,
Designing something for the public is a tough call as everyone wants something a little different. I build what works for me to use with input from no more than 1 or 2 other people, then I'll sell it if anyone wants it. Little guys like me won't retire from making small things in the garage/shop at home. But I'm having a great time.

[pete from TN]

Poppabears machine was real nice and looked to work well. I have NEVER run a 1" depth of cut on a machine this size and to expect it for manufacture is a joke. I have a Lathemaster mill converting to cnc and even manual with hamfists back when I got it and did not really know it's limits I never tried that. The Tormach machine is a fine little mill and most will use a 1/2 or 3/8 inch or smaller endmill the majority of the time and take reasonable depths of cut and abide within the realistic machining abilities of the machine. To ask that it can do more than that is not realistic. Hell I doubt I would even do that on my Knee mill and it weighs nearly three times as much as the tormach. I intend to build my own toolchanger similar to Hoss and Poppabears and use the tormach system and a power drawbar similar to hoss's on my Lathemaster mill. I am no engineer but just from what I have seen using these holders on my knee mill screwing around I feel confident they will perform to my expectations just fine....

To be honest I was bummed out when Poppabear bowed out of this idea and could not blame him for the responses he received about it. I do not even own a tormach and I was excited about his product. Wish I could afford one but maybe someday....peace

[Freddy Bastard]

Scott, your design looked very good. It would have probably do the job for most of us. I don't use big d.o.c, I use very small tools and never push this machine too hard. Hope someone will bring it to life.

[ihavenofish]

that atc thread made my head hurt
i think some people make it their quest to kill anything they dont happen to need or want.

anyhow. im getting a new bf20 type manual milling machine within the month, and it will be converted slowy to cnc, and one main focus is a tool changer idea. the machine is of course not a tormach - alot smaller - but the assembly could apply to it i think, with minor modifications.

the first thing was the spindle. i decided bt30. reason was that the tooling is fairly universal, and with places like maritool, its no more expensive than the TTS and alot more broad in application. the TTS is a fine system bu BT30 just makes everything a ton cheaper and easier. the spindle shaft will have a spring stack, stud gripper mechanism, and a pneumatic release mechanisim. in terms of the tormach, it may be easy enough to replace the spindle shaft in their r8 or bt30 cartridge. the release device bolts on top of the head and is engaged by a valve triggered by the tool changer mechanically. right now to release the design puts presure on the spindle bearings. i can probably resolve this but it might complicate it too much (read: expensive). its certainly no worse than whacking the drawbar with a hammer. im aiming for cheap and easy.

second aspect is the atc. im aiming for a system very much like the one used in fanuc robo drills and brother tapping centres. its intended to be all mechanical and mounts to the column kinda 45 degree sidearm. on my particular machine, it will use the top 2.5" of travel to set the whole thing in motion. a small servo or stepper can spin the tool carousel to change tools. my personal change will probably have only 6 tool positions, but its fairly easy to make more on a bigger machine. so really, all the controller has to do is move to the top of the Z, spin the carousel, and move back down. only drawback is you lose the top 2.5" of travel to the changer. on my machine i can run the saddle off the column, so i wont "lose" anything. tormach has ample z travel, so its probably fine for most people. it possibly to make the changer only engage when desired, but that gets gets back into complications.

what will it cost? no idea yet. probably alot. atc's will ALWAYS cost alot. if you dont want to pay, you dont need an atc. that said, at least for a 6 position model on the bf20, i think it could come in at just a few grand. if it was sent to china to be made, probably a fair bit less. the tormach would probably run more simply because it would be bigger.

and to preempt the events of the last thread... the answer to your queston is NO!!!!!



well, maybe.

[levelzero]

Right now I couldn't afford the tool changer but I thought it was a fantastic idea and it is pretty high on my list of needs for the machine. I don't normally run a deep DOC and instead stick to wide and fast passes.

I guess it's back to designing my own

[sharpshooter90]

R.DesJardin,

To produce, Warrenty, service, market etc. the device was getting into a price range that was unsutainable for the Tormach. I sold the ATC and IP to a Tiwanese company, for them to bring to market on a different type of machine, with some mechanical/electrical and programming mods of course.

scott

A while back when this first came to my attention I posted some comments- Briefly I said the idea was too machine specific, and should be modified to be adaptable to a broad range of machines. I said it was too expensive for the average home/small shop guy with only 1 machine. Others jumped on me and called me a naysayer etc. However the fact that the project went nowhere and has been turned over to someone else for an entirely different machine has proven my comments to have been correct. Inventors are a different breed, and most do not take kindly to any sort of outside input, no matter if its constructive or not. That's one of the reasons that of all the millions of patents issued over the years, only a tiny fraction have ever made it to the marketplace.

[ihavenofish]

A while back when this first came to my attention I posted some comments- Briefly I said the idea was too machine specific, and should be modified to be adaptable to a broad range of machines. I said it was too expensive for the average home/small shop guy with only 1 machine. Others jumped on me and called me a naysayer etc. However the fact that the project went nowhere and has been turned over to someone else for an entirely different machine has proven my comments to have been correct. Inventors are a different breed, and most do not take kindly to any sort of outside input, no matter if its constructive or not. That's one of the reasons that of all the millions of patents issued over the years, only a tiny fraction have ever made it to the marketplace.

i tend to over analyze everything when it comes to marketable products. ill think of things, and quickly determine they arent worth the time/money etc. then 6 months later a nearly identical product hits the market and makes a killing. sometimes you just gotta stop thinking and make the damned thing to move forward.

the other tool changer design could easily have been finished, put up to sale, and sold a handful of units one off for a high price. the money earned then used to refine and resubmit the device for a lower price, and so on. thats how that majority of specialty products get developed, and especially the grasstroots "forum IP" derived ones. you arent required to start at optimum price and volume with these things, as long as theres a couple people who's need outweigh the price.

so even if it was too machine specific, tool specific, or limiting in certain ways at first, your attitude was a strong factor in discouraging the developer, and i found that very sad.

[PoppaBear10]

Sharpshooter,

Seriously, get a life man, you have NO clue what your talking about at all. I noticed that you nay-say everything, and put down all things that others do. I have NOT seen ANY of your stuff. So, if you have actually ever created and had the guts to publish, lets see your work. I showed a video of mine working.... I Looked at most of your threads, you talk alot of crap but don't ever show any of your own work.

I know, you are probably some jealous, no talent punk, hiding behind his keyboard, or a troll for some other company. I also know that like clock work, you will post some inane reply to this one. I will not reply, since until you show something YOU have made, Shut up.

Scott

[instructor37]

i tend to over analyze everything when it comes to marketable products. ill think of things, and quickly determine they arent worth the time/money etc. then 6 months later a nearly identical product hits the market and makes a killing. sometimes you just gotta stop thinking and make the damned thing to move forward.

the other tool changer design could easily have been finished, put up to sale, and sold a handful of units one off for a high price. the money earned then used to refine and resubmit the device for a lower price, and so on. thats how that majority of specialty products get developed, and especially the grasstroots "forum IP" derived ones. you arent required to start at optimum price and volume with these things, as long as theres a couple people who's need outweigh the price.

so even if it was too machine specific, tool specific, or limiting in certain ways at first, your attitude was a strong factor in discouraging the developer, and i found that very sad.

I read a lot of the posts on this subject, and frankly I think Sharpshooter was pretty measured in his comments. He never called anyone names or derided the product. Clearly the inventor is upset because the project failed, but you cannot blame failure on the opinions of others. If you study the history of commerce in general you will find that most successful inventors have overcome tremendous obstacles from simply being ridiculed to outright attacks from opposing parties. The battle between Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse for the dominant electrical system was as down and dirty as you can get. Edison was the favorite due to his iconic status, but Westinghouse had the better system and eventually prevailed. Ironically, lost in this titanic struggle was the classic " inventive genius" Nicloa Tesla who was the technical superior of either of these men, but died penniless. Henry Ford is another example- he failed twice in the automobile business and was bankrupt in a time when that was considered as bad as a social disease. Yet he perservered and eventually created the blueprint for the automobile industry. He succeeded because his vision of mass production was correct for the emerging market and because he did not let his own failures or the opinions of others deter him from his goal.

[ihavenofish]

I read a lot of the posts on this subject, and frankly I think Sharpshooter was pretty measured in his comments. He never called anyone names or derided the product. Clearly the inventor is upset because the project failed, but you cannot blame failure on the opinions of others. If you study the history of commerce in general you will find that most successful inventors have overcome tremendous obstacles from simply being ridiculed to outright attacks from opposing parties. The battle between Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse for the dominant electrical system was as down and dirty as you can get. Edison was the favorite due to his iconic status, but Westinghouse had the better system and eventually prevailed. Ironically, lost in this titanic struggle was the classic " inventive genius" Nicloa Tesla who was the technical superior of either of these men, but died penniless. Henry Ford is another example- he failed twice in the automobile business and was bankrupt in a time when that was considered as bad as a social disease. Yet he perservered and eventually created the blueprint for the automobile industry. He succeeded because his vision of mass production was correct for the emerging market and because he did not let his own failures or the opinions of others deter him from his goal.

im not blaming him for the failure, just stating that his attutude contributes greatly to it. sure, you can say he should just be ignored, but that hasnt happened.

anyhow. i have a tool changer question....

bt30 - easy and cheap to find tooling, expensive to make a spindle, spindle is large and heavy. low speed without very expensive bearings.

iso25 - hard to find tooling, limited choices, higher price tools. much cheaper and more versatile in a spindle, can be adapted to many sizes of machines and run at 20000rpm+ easily.

so the question is, what is more important to people here? cheaper more versatile system, or commonplace tooling?

if this was tormach only, geared to low speed work in steel etc, i think bt30 is the obvious choice. but for a system with borader capabilities - like universal use in all bf16, bf20, x3/kx3/nm135, tormach, rf45, IH, nm200 machines, the iso25 is ideal.

my thoughts lean to maritool having 2 $100 er chucks for iso25, and a number of makers able to supply blanks for milling face mill arbors and whatnot, the iso25 might be the ideal solution in the long run. in the short term, the marketter of this system (be it me or someone else) should at least supply a source for er chucks and a common size shell mill arbor.

only other drawback is iso25 is notably weaker than the bt30, but the class of machines these will be used on dont have enough torque to make the difference meaningful im actually specing the same sized bearings as most smaller bt30's get (35mm ID) and the taper is sunk deeper inside them for high rigidity. there might be an optional water cooling sleeve for the front bearings for high speed applications.

the system can be easily offered in 4 parts:
1 - the spindle with releasse cylinder. the goal is 1 size fits all.
2 - spindle mounting arangements for each machine.
3 - atc mechanism. again, 1 size fits all.
4 - atc mounting equipment for each machine.

mounting actually poses an issue for the x3 based machines due to the ball screw behind the column. not sure how to deal with that yet without eating more Z travel.

[zephyr9900]

Clearly the inventor is upset because the project failed, but you cannot blame failure on the opinions of others.

You can only blame Scott for one thing--letting the opinions of others influence his design!

The toolchanger/drawbar he designed was perfectly suited for the mainstream of Tormach users. When you let feature creep happen, a Tormach turns into a Haas, and a Hass turns into a Mikron, etc. with corresponding price points.

IMO, the extreme metal-hogging videos that Tormach has posted are like proof tests of a firearm. It will withstand that stress, but nobody can expect to do that day in and day out.

As it is, people time and time again have posted here that if you want to take extreme cuts with the Tormach, use solid R8 endmill holders.

Myself, I had a TTS holder start walking out of the collet yesterday, ruining the part. The cut? .100" deep and .062" wide in acrylic with a 3-flute .250" ball-end mill. Time to degrease the collet and holders again! And yes, the drawbar was torqued, my standard of "as tight as I can get it with the stock drawbar wrench" on which I have rounded the "push end" for better ergonomics .

Randy

[sharpshooter90]

I read a lot of the posts on this subject, and frankly I think Sharpshooter was pretty measured in his comments. He never called anyone names or derided the product. Clearly the inventor is upset because the project failed, but you cannot blame failure on the opinions of others. If you study the history of commerce in general you will find that most successful inventors have overcome tremendous obstacles from simply being ridiculed to outright attacks from opposing parties. The battle between Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse for the dominant electrical system was as down and dirty as you can get. Edison was the favorite due to his iconic status, but Westinghouse had the better system and eventually prevailed. Ironically, lost in this titanic struggle was the classic " inventive genius" Nicloa Tesla who was the technical superior of either of these men, but died penniless. Henry Ford is another example- he failed twice in the automobile business and was bankrupt in a time when that was considered as bad as a social disease. Yet he perservered and eventually created the blueprint for the automobile industry. He succeeded because his vision of mass production was correct for the emerging market and because he did not let his own failures or the opinions of others deter him from his goal.

Don't forget the good old luck factor either. Sometimes you just need to be in the right place at the right time to become a genius. Bill Gates is a great example of that- we all know him as the nerdy shy guy who is the world's richest man. Most people think of him as the guy who invented software. Actually he was just one of a million smart young guys who were involved in the computer revolution of the 70's. He and a lot of others understood that the computers themselves were just boxes stuffed full of off the shelf components. The real key to the computer was the operating system. Through some good fortune, he happened to get an introduction to IBM who was struggling with their PC against Apple, who had a superior software. Gates managed to get a contract to supply big blue with a software package- great- except he did not actually have a workable system. However, there was a fellow in Seattle that had a working system with all the right basics. Gates goes to this guy and buys the entire design for some ridiculous amount- about 20,000.00. With a few refinements it is re-branded as MSDOS and in a few years Gates is hailed as a genius and is worth billions. The poor inventor guy probably bought himself a new car and spent the rest of his life in a sea of regret. I'll bet Gates never thought of tossing this guy a few million later on either. Who knows. maybe one day the Sultan of Brunei will decide to train all male subjects under 21 as CNC machinists and will order 10,000 Tormach machines- naturally fully equipped with ATC's. The Taiwanese guys will make piles of money using the design they got from Scott for nothing and he will be out looking for me with vengeance on his mind.

[ihavenofish]

Who knows. maybe one day the Sultan of Brunei will decide to train all male subjects under 21 as CNC machinists and will order 10,000 Tormach machines- naturally fully equipped with ATC's. The Taiwanese guys will make piles of money using the design they got from Scott for nothing and he will be out looking for me with vengeance on his mind.

.... see, thats the crap we dont need in these threads. assinine comments to put down people doing things you cant. maybe you dont even realize youre doing it, but they are offensive and make you look kinda petty and sad.

[kenrik]

.... see, thats the crap we dont need in these threads. assinine comments to put down people doing things you cant. maybe you dont even realize youre doing it, but they are offensive and make you look kinda petty and sad.

Actuially...I think Sharpshooter90's smart ass remarks makes himself look like a self-righteous pompous dip **** !!!