[Al_The_Man]

They appear to be 5mm dia, and alot closer sensing distance, 0.8mm??
Other specs similar.
Al.

[wildwestpat]

Look up the spec for the new sensor as the npn on voltage of the first lot of sensors was 1.8 volts which is too high to operate the CNC4PC C10 BOB which requires 0.8 volts maximum. Hence the need for the extra resistor and the pull down to zero volts - the last set of values I gave you should work with the first sensors you purchased. If you wish to use more than one of the 1.8 volt npn on sensors ask and I will post a circuit for this as it requires a negative rail to be generated from the 24 volt supply with diodes from which to derive the zero reference voltage for the C10 - sounds complicated but it only adds three or four extra components.

What you need to check on the data sheet for the new purchase is that the 'ON' voltage is less than 0.8 volts.

Regards - Pat

[Al_The_Man]

So I went back and bought what they had left, only this time I got 10 for $10.00 model#Bi1-EG05-AP6x.they are alot smaller. .

It look like the AP6 in the suffix indicates PNP, which means they are source type as opposed to the previous NPN sink.
Al.

[wildwestpat]

That is good as the pnp open collector sort just need setting the BOB to pull down to zero volts using the C10 cards jumper appropriate to the inputs being used. A series resistor will be required with a value depending upon the voltage of the supply used for the switch - for 24 volts this would be 25K i.e. use 24K 1/8 watt. The wattage could be greater as this will result in greater physical strength.

The saturation voltage with the switch in the 'ON' state is with PNP type largely irrelevant as the pull down resistor fixes the input to zero volts.

Again the information required is in the CNC4PC manual for the C10 BOB card and can be downloaded if required from their web site. Section 7.3 gives the required information.

When the source of surplus switches dries up equivalents are available on ebay (China unfortunately) for around $5 per switch.

Regards - Pat

PS If this is a 1mm sensing range detector the over run may not be long enough for the mechanics to halt after the switch has detected the table. This is dependent upon the mechanics of the drive motor and the mechanical inertia etc. Play safe and mount the switch with blutack or plasticine with out the locking nuts and check that the mechanics can be brought to rest quickly enough to prevent physical contact with the switch. Given a choice the operating range should be selected to cope with the table inertia and the motor characteristics or a suitable bracket designed to take the over run . The accuracy of detection is not greatly affected by the detection distance i.e a 1mm switch is not five times more sensitive than a 5mm operating range switch.

[hacker7]

Ok all I could find locally was 18k,or 22k for the Brn to Blk.They did'nt have 20k. I did find the 5.1k for the Blk to C10 board. Now for the BAD new's it work's just the opposite of what I need. On the bench if I leave the "target" in front of the sensor I can do a reset and everything work's fine. If I move the target away from the sensor Mach read's "limit switch triggerd". Weird I know. I tried changing to the "active low" in Mach, tried moving the C10 jumper to "Pulled High". I'm clueless........

Let me run though this one more time......
20k resistor between BRN wire and BLK wire, right? 18k or 22k was bought locally. Then 5.1k resistor from BLK wire to C10 input? Right.

If it is because I need the 20k Ill order a few and see what happen's .
Once again thank's for valuable time. Richard

PS They were all 1/8 watt also. And Al the sensing Range for the new sensor say 1mm on the bag that's pretty . close. Al will turck send out catalog's?

[Al_The_Man]

Al will turck send out catalog's?

I'm afraid the days of hard copy catalogs are virtually over with the advent of Adobe PDF!
I have accumulated many over the years and fortunately have hung on to them for not only products such as this, but old servo data etc, Of which much is no longer available from many manuf. due to obsolete or discontinued product line.
When servicing older equipment it proves invaluable.
Al.

[hacker7]

Did some more testing . With the 22k resistor between blk and brn w/o the target in front of it I get 1.7 w/target in front of it I get 0.1. Again w/o target
in front of it I can't do a "Reset". W/ target in front of it I CAN do a "Reset"
and everything work's like normal. Anyway just a update. Thank's Richard

PS Same reading's w/ 18k resistor.

[wildwestpat]

Hi Al As far as documenting obsolete products it is concerned many manufacturers assume their revenue stream for new sales is completely decoupled from any frustration experienced in dealing with their obsolete lines. Do they not realise that new machine designers often base their designs on tried and tested methods and then translate into new parts for production. I have a list of pet hates that I would not use or recommend and the lack of information availability is often linked to over zealous sales staff.

Richard - The C10 BOB uses 5 volt logic for interfacing. This means that it must have input for logic 'zero' of less than 0.8 volt and for logic 'one' more than two volts but less than 5 volts. The resistors work as a potential dividing network with the C10 input resistors. The values you have are not quite right. Can you confirm that you have a 22K resistor from black to brown. Black connected to the input of the C10 and the resistors set to pull down on the appropriate links i.e. link on pins 1&2. AND no other resistors associated with the switch or input on the C10. With this connection you should have normal TTL logic levels present on the input to your C10. The logic one level should be about four volts and the logic zero almost zero volts as measured with you digital meter. Can you please confirm the configuration and the resistor and voltages please if you need further help.

Also do you know the input impedance of the digital meter you are using - this may be on the label on the back or on the front expressed ohms per volt or as a single figure. I am asking as the meter if of low resistance will pull down the voltage.

Regards - Pat

[hacker7]

Al & Pat I'm an idiot It work's fine with "your" resistor value's. If I would have put the 5.1k in the circuit instead of a 50k it would have worked. But me being the novice I didn't think to check the resistor with the mm I guess I couldn't see the proper color. Anyway is there a to wire the three switch's for the extreme limit's in series or parallel to save on input's. You had made a comment about a rail system. Also how would the new pnp switch's be wired same way or no? Anyway THANK YOU, THANK YOU, for your patience with me. Richard

[Al_The_Man]

Strictly speaking over travel limits should be N.C. switches for safety reasons, but N.O. open collector outputs can be wired in parallel or 'OR'ed in most cases using one single pull up (NPN), or down (PNP) as the case may be..
Al.

[wildwestpat]

Yes multiple open collector switches can be connected to the same input. The connection is given in the C10 manual fig five in the copy I have. Proceed as follows for NPN open collector:-

Connect all the black leads together on the required input. Wire all the brown switch wires to the positive of your 24 volt supply. Wire each blue switch to the adjacent common (zero volts of the C10 board) with each black wire wires going to that input. Connect the negative terminal of your 24 volt supply to the common zero volts of the C10. Connect ONE 24K resistor from the switch input to the positive of your 24 volt supply.

The terminals on the CNC4PC boards are a bit on the small size for four wires. I suggest using a short length of tinned copper wire (12 SWG or similar) and wrapping each stranded wire round that tinned wire and soldering neatly. Use a bit of shrink sleeving to neaten up and insulate against problems caused by short circuits in the future.

You might care to note that as limit switches only one switch would be operational at a time. You should also be able to connect directly into the C10 terminals with just two switches per input. PNP switches require a different arrangement as they pull to the positive of the axillary supply not the negative as for NPN.

Glad to help as we all had to start somewhere. Good luck with the rest of the conversion. Regards - Pat

[wildwestpat]

When you have the connections in their final configuration make a neat diagram with wire colours switch types and component values. Use pencil not coloured pens as the colours can fade over years and be unreadable - this also applies to some computer coloured inks as well. I laminate these diagrams and place then inside the enclosure. This keeps the information with the machine where it might be needed many years down the line. I also make it policy to hand over a folder with copies of all the data sheets on parts used connections and any constraints with the machine or if it is for my self lodge the folder on my working book shelf.

Good luck with the build - Regards - Pat

[hacker7]

Hey Pat one more ? I also have a 12vdc power supply what value resistor would I use between the BRN and BLK. And the BLK to the C10. Thank's
again. Richard

[wildwestpat]

Hi Richard

For 12 volts 10K is recommended by CNC4PC. From the plus terminal of the 12 volts negative to the C10 zero common pin and the 10k resistor between BROWN and Black. Switches that are open collector can be in parallel but use only one 10K resistor to pull up to the +12 supply.

Regards - Pat

[hacker7]

Thank's again. Gonna try it right now. Richard

[hacker7]

Oh what figure am I looking at in the CNC4PC manual for my application?
Thank's Rich

[hacker7]

Pat hate to bother you again. With 12vdc which actually measured 15.97vdc and a confirmed 10k resistor, Brown, Black,Orange,Gold were the ring's on the resistor at 1/8 watt. I also used multi.m to get a reading from the resistor of 9.9. Hooked up per figure 4 in the cnc4pc manual,it wouldn't work. Resistor between BROWN and BLACK. Brown being + and Black going to C10 pin 15. I hope I gave you enough info to go on. Thank's Rich

[wildwestpat]

Hi Richard first the colour code:- Black = zero Brown = 1 Red = 2 Orange = 3 Yellow = 4 Green = 5 Blue = 6 Violet = 7 White = 8 and Grey = 9 (Google resistor colour code for a fuller, coloured explanation.)

When these are used on resistors the code starts with the band nearest the end lead.

i.e. your 10K resistor has Brown then Black then Orange which from the code is 10,000 ohms. Or in electronics engineers parlance 10K ohms.

With your power supply measuring nearly 16 volts the resistor needs to be increased to 15K.

[hacker7]

Sorry it took so long to let you know the results. Well put a 15k 1/8 watt resistor between brown and black , I couldn't get the crazy thing to work on the 12vdc power supply. Could it be that it is a wall plug in power supply? Still kinda lost but the 5.1k resistor from blk to the C10 is so voltage will drop to 0.8v? And then the 15k resistor
going from brn to blk is for the power supply? Thanks Richard

[wildwestpat]

Hi Richard Let's take this one step at a time.

From your last post can I assume you do not have the 5.1K resistor or any other value between the black wire of the switch and the BOB input pin? The values I am giving you are for a resistor between Black and brown on the switch (15K) and with the BOB set to pull down.

Yes it is possible the wall wart power supply you are using is behind your problems. Look at the lable just to check that it is not an AC low voltage adaptor - the DC sort indicate which side is + and which is - and probably have two parallel lines one solid and the other dotted the dotted line indicates that it is not regulated and may be lacking in smoothing capacitor but it should be a DC supply. Proceed to test it by measuring the output voltage with it disconnected from every thing but obviously plugged into the mains supply! Measure the voltage with your digital volt meter (DVM) set to DC volts. Then reverse the leads on the voltmeter and check that the DVM shows the polarity reverses. This is to check that the wall wart is delivering direct current not alternating as well as testing the input circuit to you DVM.

The voltage reading will no doubt not be 12 volts but that does not matter so long as it is not an alternating current. Unfortunately some of these wall warts do not have any smoothing capacitor in them and deliver just rectified alternating voltage. See the last paragraph if the following tests fail.

Now to test the switch is doing the right thing prior to connecting it to the wall wart and not the BOB. Make sure you only have one resistor (use that 15k one you have been using) connected from Black to Brown and the brown goes to the positive of the wall wart lead. The negative of the wall wart is connected to the Blue wire from the switch. Now check that with the vane out you have less than 0.5 volt measured between the blue and black leads and putting the vane in the voltage rises to that of the wall wart. This is to see if the switch is operating correctly. Problems can be due to stray light from another source such as a desk lamp, dirt on the lenses on the inside faces of the arms of the switch or insufficient current in the diode (LED) arm of the switch all or any of these might explain a higher voltage than say 0.5 volts with the vane out - to operate the BOB you must have less than 0.8 volts across the switch with the vane out. (Since the speed of the optical switch will track the ripples in the DC supply it does not follow that the wall wart is OK just because this test works out OK.)

If the above tests are all OK then check the BOB input is set to pull down i.e. the link is on pins 1&2 with pin 3 uncovered. There are two 'pull up pull down' links on your BOB so make sure you are setting the one for the input you are using for the switch. (Oh so easy to get the wrong one so please check. Also check that the link is placed correctly on the pins with some links it is possible to miss the pins so it looks OK but is not making contact.)

If these voltages are OK then:- Connect the switch to the BOB - blue wire and negative of the wall wart to the zero switch pin of the BOB and the black to the input of the BOB for the switch as well as to the resistor that goes to the wall wart positive and the switch brown wire. No other resistors needed.

Connect your DVM between the blue and black of the switch and measure the voltage with the vane in and with the vane out. The voltage should be less than 0.8 volts vane out (all voltages should be positive with respect to the BOB zero volts) and more than 2.0 volts but less than 5.0 volts with the vane in.

You should only have one resistor and it is OK to connect the other switches in parallel but the switching action you require means that the vane has to be in place between the arms of the switch until the end of travel is reached (or the home position if it is the homing switch).

If you still have faulty switching and since you have check the switch is OK it is possible that the wall wart is delivering rough DC in which case you may need an external smoothing capacitor - any value between 25micro-farads and 100 micro-farads. Make sure you connect it the right way round + end to the wall wart positive etc. as these components are usually polarity sensitive. (micro-farads is shortened to mfd if you need to buy one) The voltage of the capacitor should be greater than 25 volts. If you have to visit the electronics store can I suggest you also buy a few 0.01mfd disk ceramic capacitors as these are useful for removing any induced pick up on the inputs to the stepper drivers and across the power supply to the stepper drive electronics. Spikes from these can cause problems with erratic action.

Regards - Pat