[Metal-Mass]

Torchmate 2 4'x4',Tracker Pro 4x4/or Nitro,EZ-ROUTER, PlasmaCam, DynaTorch.
So this is crazy I am a new high school metals/welding teacher, and the school is brand new. They put a fume hood already in for a CNC table thats 4x4. Obviously its a school so funds are limited and price MAX would be $20k, and I think thats pushing it. What I want is comments on these machines cuz they all seem to be in my price range. I need the good the bad and the ugly on these so any help would be great. Oh and I have less than a month to get my proposal together.

Thanks

[Edwardo]

Just a suggestion, but being in a shop class is there any way you can have the students build your own? It would be less expensive plus give them all the skills they need to build there own some day.

EDD

[Metal-Mass]

Oh that sounds like a good idea, but i'm not I even know how to do that, and or what materials to get. I have some experience with both CNC and programing/electronic, but i dono if I have enough to take the students through the whole process.

[slammedxonair]

dynatorch #1 but they dont make a 4x4 not listed anyways. Give them a call great people to deal with. If i had to make a second choice i would say torchmate just because one of my wholesale suppliers has one and I have seen the cuts they can make. although the dynatoch does make smoother cuts and I believe it to be because it has servo motors and not steppers but dont quote me on that.

[Metal-Mass]

Yeah I called them today, and they said they sold a 4x4 table. do you know what type of controller or software they use?

[millman52]

Yeah I called them today, and they said they sold a 4x4 table. do you know what type of controller or software they use?

Their own operating system, works on Windows based PC CAD, CAM software is WE-CIM by Whitlock Engineering & others..

You might also want to look at Plasmacam http://www.plasmacam.com/indexfla.php

Also PlasmaRoute
http://www.plasmaroute.com/


If your shop is equipped with a few machine tools, small/medium lathe, knee type milling machine, Light welding equipment.

Building one is a good project. You can find all the information you need here. (about 40 hrs. of reading build logs etc.) Practically all vendors of electronic & mechanical parts needed are discussed here somewhere.

Probably the easiest electronics to hook up would be www.candcnc.com They also have good support & troubleshooting. & each part of the system is designed around the next. In other words made to work well together.

Hypertherm would be my choice of plasma machine www.hypertherm.com. Also great support.

I have no affiliation with any of the sources I have listed. Just know by some first hand experience & what others have posted somewhere here.


My build log starts here. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31133

By no means is my table the nicest build listed here. There are some that would rival higher end machines of $30,000.00 - $40,000.00 or more.

My table is currently Ox/Fuel but does deliver very accurate parts & is used daily in a production shop. Mistakes? Yep I made some & am currently refining some of them + adding plasma.

Good luck & you can count on help from many of the members here.

Neil

[Metal-Mass]

Yeah I have heard some things about plasmacam, mostly bad but that's the one the district has bought before. I have a quote from Plasma Route too. I don't have the and other machining tools that i would like just yet. so if I built one I would have to buy most all the parts.

[millman52]

Most of the machine work for the table can be done with hand tools & a drill press. A lathe & mill just lets you make pretty much all your parts. But doable without actual machine tools.

Plasmacam has some bad rap, but it was from older mod. machines. Most reports I have now claim they are a good machine.

Again I'm not pushing a Plasmacam. Just relaying what I have read or heard elsewhere.

[Torchhead]

General rule of the DIY VS buy is that even buying all the parts you will end up saving about 1/2 the price. In exchange you will invest time and frustration (:-)

In the end you want a table that is as automated and easy to learn (and fix) as possible for the students. When you do your own build that makes you the resident expert and support person(s). It's not always obvious but plasma cutting is harder to do than other types of CNC.

While an experienced operator can do limited production cutting with no Torch Height Control it would prove difficult for learners not to forget a stepn and destroy consumables (price a full set of consumables for your selected plasma cutter). Pierce wrong and you ruin the nozzel and if usually the electrode goes too. Let the torch touch the material while cutting and you suffer the same fate. If you have to replace consumables several times a day, you will start to see the cost savings of no THC evaporate, So price all your choices with a modern THC.

In a 4 X 4 size your options have opened up considerably. Lower cost control systems, hybrid high torque steppers and open software are creating integrated products that have lower costs, multiple sources of replacement parts and support.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com
Totally Modular CNC Electronics

[Metal-Mass]

Maybe I Have heard wrong about plasmacam, do they still use software that only they use? My beef with that is I want the kids to learn Industry standards. If plasmacam programming isn't used industry wide, they don't need to learn it in my shop. THC is a must I know, its worth the extra money. I think it would be great to build my own vs. buying. I see the benefits of knowing that machine inside and out and I like that, but being a first year teacher at a school that will open for the first time in the fall, I have a bit on my plate already. So which table would allow me to work on the table if it breaks to fix it with parts from the market?

[TerraWombat]

Maybe I Have heard wrong about plasmacam, do they still use software that only they use? My beef with that is I want the kids to learn Industry standards. If plasmacam programming isn't used industry wide, they don't need to learn it in my shop. THC is a must I know, its worth the extra money. I think it would be great to build my own vs. buying. I see the benefits of knowing that machine inside and out and I like that, but being a first year teacher at a school that will open for the first time in the fall, I have a bit on my plate already. So which table would allow me to work on the table if it breaks to fix it with parts from the market?

PlasmaCAM uses their own CAD/CAM and controller software. The PlasmaRoute you got a quote on uses MACH3, which is a very widely used controller in the hobby world and they're about to release an "industrial" version sometime soon.

If you're preparing the students to become professional CNC operators, I don't think either controllers I mentioned are a good choice since neither are widely used in "the industry."

You can almost use me as an example on which controller software to pick. I went to a school that had an OMAX Waterjet that I was trained on and learned the program inside and out. Now, I've chosen a career (not CNC-related), but I'm starting my own shop as a hobby (but also thinking about the potential for a side business). Unfortunately, an OMAX waterjet will run me more money than I make in a year, so that's out of the question - and there goes a lot of that training. Instead, I'm looking at getting a plasma table, mill, and lathe and using MACH3 to run all three of them. Had I learned MACH3 in school, I would be a step ahead of the game! For people like me, MACH3 is the obvious choice for machine controllers because of its incredibly low cost ($175 or around there).

Just some food for thought.

[Metal-Mass]

Yeah I have heard about MACH3, so I want a software that the kids can look at and edit the G-code. Is there one that offers a close to an industry feel that will operate on the tables I mentioned at the beginning of my post? When I learned G-code I used Word Pad and then uploaded the text to the CNC and ran a simulation. Talk about a walk AROUND.

[TerraWombat]

Yeah I have heard about MACH3, so I want a software that the kids can look at and edit the G-code. Is there one that offers a close to an industry feel that will operate on the tables I mentioned at the beginning of my post? When I learned G-code I used Word Pad and then uploaded the text to the CNC and ran a simulation. Talk about a walk AROUND.

Don't be afraid to download MACH3 and try it out for yourself a bit. You can at least take a look around and see what it's all about. Free to try, but limited to a certain number of lines of G-Code if you actually want to cut with it.

http://www.machsupport.com/downloads.php

[Torchhead]

None of the tables you listed in the first post with the exception of EZ-Router use MACH. Primary reason (besides the no profit angle) is they loss control of the customer if they can go and get ideas and support from other sources. In mystery there is margin!

It less about which controller you use if the you teach your students the "process" of CNC using the 3 C's: CAD, CAM, CONTROL. If you understand those individual functions you can quickly pick up just about any commercial machine and any type of CNC cutting/operations. If you can draw an object in any program that will export DXF files and then let you take that file to virtually any CAM program (based on the depth of your pockets and the type CNC you want to do) and then it spits out an industry standard G-code for moving the machine you understand the process By having flexible choices the operator has options and does not get into learning one "system". MACH is a software Controller. It uses a PC and Windows to control the motion using INDUSTRY STANDARD g-code; Stuff you can read as it runs or use a simple text editor to modify. Every operator needs to know a little g-code (enough to look at the code and determine what the machine is supposed to do). It's WAY past the stage where anyone will pay you to sit and hand write g-code but they will pay you to analyze and fix a file that is causing problems.

When you use a machine that has it's own closed system then you learn that system. When you learn the process you can mix and match different drawing programs, different CAM programs and even different controllers.

The beauty of MACH is the open development options but the average operator will never go that deep. It is a very capable Controller with a good user interface.

For over 5 years we have done decorative plasma cutting and without the flexibility to use a drawing program that imports a lot of file formats for instant clipart and ways to easily manipulate text/fonts and quickly draw something we could show the customer we would have been SOL on a lot of nice paying jobs. I use CorelDraw for artwork, SheetCAM for the CAM/toolpath and MACH to make it run and handle the integrated THC functions.

www.FourhillsDesigns.com for the metal cutting

Tom Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[Metal-Mass]

Yeah I was thinking basically the same way of approaching the students. When I learned 3D CAD systems I learned 3 different ones at once to get the understanding down, that way I could, with some practice, pick up any CAD program depending on the companies choices. Not that I need a bunch of different CAM systems for the students to learn, but I wanted one that would at least expose the G-code that the software was putting out so that they could see it and manipulate a few lines. I like Trackers machine set up but from what I can tell their software doesn't allow access to the codes to see what really going on. It's like being able to understand Bezier curves and surfaces to really grasp what your 3D CAD system is doing. As far as I can see, Dynatorch, Torchmate, EZ-router, and Plasma Route all have software that does expose the code.

[J D Redneck]

I would not recommend buying a machine from 'Precision Cutting Systems Inc.' in Calgary.
They have not been helpful in trying to solve our problems.
The Height Controller still does not work properly, & they will not come to find out what the problem is. They sent a Hypertherm rep once, but the system is not fully Hypertherm.
They have modified the system to use their own lifting assembly.
They also have modified the software, which is a pain to use sometimes, & say that if you use another software the warrenty will be void.
When we ordered the machine, a couple of items were mentioned that we wanted, but she didn't make note of them. When we got the unit, she refused to acknowledge that we had ordered them.
When we picked up the machine they were still building it, after about 3 months waiting for it ( aprox time frame ), then we took it, unaware at the time that the unit had not been tested at all. They said that everything worked fine. The support is non existant to being stupid. When a call was placed, ( support is on specific days @ specific times which may not coincide with your schedule ) and a question was asked, everytime she would answer with the same question: "Is the machine grounded?" We have sufficient grounding, but she still insisted on asking the same question everytime.
Sorry for the ramble, but stay away from these people!!
There are other companies that will probably give you a better product.
Good Luck

Happy Trails.....

[WSS]

metal-mass,
check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Torch-table-Manu...3286.m20.l1116

It is a 3X3 table. I spoke with him ([email protected]) to see about a 6X3 table. Very reasonable! Problem was shipping. He is in Erie, Il. The Dynatorch has servos and would probably cost less than the 20K with the table and plasma gen.

Here is a nice "Command Center". This could be rolled from CNC machine to CNC machine and plugged in and the appropriate control software used.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/...roductInfo.web

You have taken on a bunch! Good luck to you and the new school.

WSS

[plain ol Bill]

Hey WSS thanks for the link to the "command center". That was just what I had been looking for and I purchased one.

[WSS]

Plain ol Bill,
I bought one about a month ago. The rebate showed up a week ago ($55). They have a bunch of accessories. I will probably add a fan or two later down the road. It is pretty good quality and stable. I did add the mouse tray, and it works great. I purchased a off-lease (used) 21" dell monitor from ebay that adjusts up and down and it fits perfect.

WSS