[Waynno]

Hey guys,

Interesting conversation here, Lots of opinions and variables

My contribution to this thread

First off, My Machining business took a crap last year and I
decided to take a class in wind energy.

So happens, I live in Mojave CA near Tehacippi, Plenty of wind
mills to service here, and plenty more proposed in the area.

Aside from the fact, The class turned me off from being a service tech
for the wind energy (Its ironic, many Wind generating machines use
similar electrical and mechanical components as CNC machinery)

So I figured I would be a perfect person being mechanically inclined
and knowing how to work on stuff.

Not the case, The wind industry is looking for young guys to climb
and work on these things, Me being 45 of age, I never felt a candidate
for a wind service tech.

Couple of facts I did learn in class, A lot of the older wind machines we
see sitting idle have are past their 20 year life expectancy. In other
words, they are 20 year old technology that is sitting there to waiting
to be scrapped for newer more efficient machines. Most of those
are the lattice machines (the ones built from angle iron looking like
erector sets)

The term is "Re-Power" meaning they will be replaced with newer machines

Mega watt class turbines are proposed to replace the older ones, And there
will be fewer per acre.

The snafu for the moment, is the infrastructure (Power lines) are already
to capacity. So in other words, Until they finish the new power line run
from here to Los Angelas CA, Some will sit inoperable until the new
transmission lines are installed, its not worth dumping money into a
20-25 year old turbine when it will just be replaced in the next 5 years
or so by a bigger one that will make 20-50 times more power.

And as mentioned earlier, They pitch themselves out of the wind if
it is blowing too much.

That is case here in CA, May not be in other parts of the nation.

So onward, some interesting hobbies of mine clashed into this subject.

One thing (Sorry if I missed) not brought up here is "Land use" and
impacts to lands from renewable projects proposed here in California.

Land use is a hobby of mine

This is where another power struggle arises (Pun)

Politics

Now we all are now aware of "Global warming" ......oops now new
political correct term "Climate change"

We still have all these chicken little people pressuring our government
we need to curb "Climate change" and reduce carbon emissions into
our air.

Renewable energy will save our plant.....Well, Ok I guess

But the chicken littles screaming we need to reduce carbon emissions
and power our state with clean renewable......

But...they are now saying wait....we dont want
all those ugly windmills here!....not in my back yard!

And.....All these little investment driven power companies are showing up
in California seeking permits to build wind mills and solar plants all
over the place, Public lands and private property.

Tax credits and dollar signs in their eyes

The Chicken littles, are starting to interfere with the permitting process
to slow them down

Catch 22...California has a mandate to be 25% renewable power by year 2020

Right now, we are sitting at about 11%

If anyone here is familiar with the process of EIR, NEPA, CEQA and other
hoops large scale projects are subjected to in order to complete a large
scale wind project, It could realistically take more time to get though
the red tape.

The mandates will not be met, because there will be
hang ups in these process by the very people who are screaming for
renewable in the first place!

ESA, Endangered Species Act, signed by President Nixon in the 70s
is now being used as a tool to hang up these permits for years on end

Example;
Fort Irwin took 20 years to expand its military base though NEPA
(National Environmental Policy Act)
The endangered desert tortoise habitat had to be mitigated to the
tune of $100s of thousands per tortoise, Only to have mitigated tortoise
eaten by the local Coyote population. Millions of tax payer dollars wasted
to save a few turtles to be eaten.

In closing

Our Lovely Senator Fienstien D CA is proposing new legislation
to lock up 1.1 million acres of public lands in California this year.

This will expand Death Valley national park, create 2 more national
monuments and re-designate more public lands as wilderness classification

Google bill# s-2921 if you are into this stuff

Pretty much whats left between Barstow and Needles

She is on a mission with this one.....Reason?

To block the renuwables from building in the California desert.

So where the hell are they going to build all these Wind Farms
and solar plants? To meet the mandates?

If you look at a map of the entire California pie, There really is
not much left, Wilderness, National parks, State parks, Military
and private property, and everything else in between has an endangered
plant or fuzzy critter to protect.

Few things to crunch on

Waynno

[skippy]

Just came back from a week away camping with my kids and I noticed that all the wind turbines have a slightly positive rake on the prop. i.e. assuming the tower is vertical, the plane of the prop is approximately 3 or 4 degrees positive (i.e. positive rake like the forks of a motorbike). I swear I hadn't been drinking and I doubt it was an optical illusion as I have a very good eye for lines (parallel, perpendicular, etc.)!
Wonder why this is?
One of Many, thanks for your very informative (as always) links. It's true that ignorance is bliss. As I wrote somewhere else here, the more I read, the more disgusted I become as I see that the "environment" is just the name written on the banner being used to milk the system and the taxpayer.

[Geof]

.....wind turbines have a slightly positive rake on the prop....Wonder why this is?.....

Now I am going to have to look carefully next time I see some.

By positive you mean the axis of rotation is tilted up slightly at the blade end? This would give greater clearance to the tower at the blade tip and may have something to do with reducing resonance between the blades and tower as they pass by.

[Waynno]

Now I am going to have to look carefully next time I see some.

By positive you mean the axis of rotation is tilted up slightly at the blade end? This would give greater clearance to the tower at the blade tip and may have something to do with reducing resonance between the blades and tower as they pass by.

Correct, Simple fact these blades are fiberglass and can flex enough to
clip a tower in high winds.

There are a couple of videos on you tube of "Run away" wind turbines,
its pretty ugly and life has been lost

[Dualkit]

Thanks for the info Waynno. It seems most environmentalist wackos don't like any kind of energy except wind or solar, and even then some will complain about the eyesore of the wind and solar farms, they like them as long as someone doesn't build one in their back yard, they want those things out in the middle of nowhere. I think hydro power is the best, the locals around the Hoover dam only pay $.048 per kwh. The SCE thieves buy power from there and sell it to us for up to $.40 per kwh. The greenies complain about the damage the dams cause to the river. They are thinking about expanding the capacity of Hoover, but the environmental impact study will take 10-15 years, while the build will only take 3-5 years. Our government wastes so much time planning it is pathetic.

[skippy]

"By positive you mean the axis of rotation is tilted up slightly at the blade end?"
Yes, exactly.
"The SCE thieves buy power from there and sell it to us for up to $.40 per kwh" What I think is ridiculous is when governments decide that to get away from a monopoly situation they hold a tender to appoint various power companies so that you can "choose" which company you want to give your money to. The winning tenders are the ones that offer to pay the most in royalties/commissions back to the government. Then these "resellers" create all kinds of confusing tariffs and everyone is supposed to feel good and "correct". Sounds just like the mobile phone network licenses doesn't it.
I'd imagine that the USA works like this as well?

[dhellew2]

Isn't it interesting that one hand of the government mandates so-called renewable energy while another hand of government is trying to stop it.

Remember that enough reliable energy has to be available at all times equal to the amount of so-called renewable energy. So as more power is needed now utilities must build renewable resources (or buy them) and also build more reliable sources, more than doubling the cost of the energy.

Do an open minded evaluation of the so-called renewable resources and you will find that there isn't any benefit over other sources. They are not eco friendly especially when you add batteries to make the power useful. The only sensible solution is hydro and nuke power.

Texas did a cost study of the federal requirement for 10% of their power to be so-called renewable energy. They figured that even with all the regulatory BS they could build 7 nuke plants for the same cost as wind farm but 1 nuke plant will provide more energy all the wind farm.

Then comes the issue of the waste. No the waste isn't a problem, the problem is that certain government agencies are making a killing storing the waste. They don't want to get rid of it.

There are lots of options to get rid of waste including giving it back to mother earth. It is already known that it can be dumped at the source of a subducted fault and will be sucked back into the magma and destroyed without any risk to the environment. We already have the technology to do such a feat.

[fizzissist]

Then comes the issue of the waste. No the waste isn't a problem, the problem is that certain government agencies are making a killing storing the waste. They don't want to get rid of it.

Funny you should mention that....

In Nevada (Nuh-VADD-uh) right now there's the usual big pre-election battle, with Yucca Mtn's nuclear waste repository status. One big question is why, after all these years and control of the government by BOTH parties, is Yucca's fate not settled?

You get a big bingo. Everyone that's sitting on it is making money. Why would they want to ship it to Nevada for storage and lose that income??

Power companies don't care what the cost is of something needed for producing power, they simply tack on their statutory profit and pass the cost along to the consumer.

Storing nuclear waste is very expensive...meaning storing nuclear waste is very profitable.

[Hirudin]

Wow, y'all really know how to argue! This has been an interesting read; very informative.

Unfortunately some of you don't seem to know the rules of grammar and spelling which makes some of the points you're trying to make difficult to understand. Poor language skills notwithstanding* you guys can fling insults and throw jabs with the best of 'em. Bravo, keep it up!

* fixed

[ImanCarrot]

Notwithstanding is one word hehe

[dhellew2]

Fizzissist got it right except for one item. Utility rates are controlled by government. Utilities cannot raise rates anytime they want to cover added costs imposed by government. Much of the power is government 'owned' by such names as Bonneville Power Administration, Tennessee Valley Authority, etc. Another huge percentage is PUD's that operate at cost and Coop's that also are non-profit but can market multiple forms of energy and other products.

Most states have some or like California most utilities are investor owned and do look out for their stockholders but profits are controlled by government except in cases like Enron that promoted massive fraud and government failed in their wisdom to even notice until it collapsed.

Our local PUD owns and operates two dams on the Columbia River. Excess power is sold to other utilities in Washington, Oregon, and California at cost. But did you know that 28, thats right, twenty eight government agencies regulate the use of the water going through the dams to generate electricity, yet 100% of the water remains in the river. None of it is use in the process of generation of electricity.

[dhellew2]

Fizzissist asked the question: Why would they want to ship it to Nevada for storage and lose that income??

Simple answer clout. There are several storage sites in the US including one in my back yard, Hanford Washington. The people don't want it in their back yard but the individual government agencies do and their jobs depend on it. So what you have is government fighting government and the winner is the politician with the most clout at the time.

It’s no different than the constant lawsuits between counties, cities, state, and feds. Only the lawyers win.

I read an interesting article yesterday, one that makes you think. This happened in California awhile back when the police went on strike. Local folk armed themselves to protect themselves and property and crime dropped to near zero. Once the strike was over, crime returned to 'normal'.

The author then made the statement that police departments depend on crime to justify their jobs. Hmmmmm. Criminals don't like armed civilians, they have reason to protect, and they will shoot.

Haveaniceday,

Dale

[Hirudin]

Notwithstanding is one word hehe

Darn, that's always embarrassing.

[fizzissist]

I know more than I care to about Hanford and the Tri-Cities. Some years ago I was privileged (unfunny joke) to handle some mixed waste from a process trench to explore remediation of the soil. (Process Trench 316, if you're curious)

In the project we also dealt with contaminents from Rocky Flats, INEL, and the Nevada Test Site.

One huge difference between Hanford and nuclear power plant's storage, is the power plants generate low level waste, while Hanford is sitting on massive amounts of mixed waste as well as high-level nuclear, earning it a Superfund rating. There's over 50 MILLION gallons of radioactive/chemical waste in some 177 tanks. Some tanks are filled with chemicals of unknown composition, and are considered highly unstable. (that doesn't make the papers..)

...Hanford is a ticking time bomb, and nobody knows how long the fuse is.

(Hirudin, I'm speaking kinda metaphorically..I know that fuses don't tick...they kinda sputter and make funny noises, like one of our more famous posters known for being upside down. )

[Hirudin]

I'd expect a fizzissist to know all about fuse sounds.

[fizzissist]

I'd expect a fizzissist to know all about fuse sounds.

We don't make the bombs, we make the bombs better.

Science-Based Stockpile Stewardship....all the fun without the noise.

[dhellew2]

Fizzissist, everyone around here does know about the problems at Hanford, including the leaking tanks.

Did you know about what is called the down-winders? During the 50's and early 60's the government released low levels of radiation from Hanford to see what effect it would have on the environment. Fortunate for me I lived just far enough north at the time to not be affected but I know lots of people that were. Too little too late for many but some of them are getting some compensation for cancer and tumors that resulted. The levels of tumor growth are higher than anywhere else in the US and thousands of people were affected.

[dhellew2]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are sadly misinformed and have been lied to. Wind energy is the 2nd most expensive source, right behind solar.

Neither of these are reliable and must be backed up with reliable energy sources to prevent grid failure which more than triples the cost of the energy they produce. Average life of the wind machines is 15-years. Most other sources have a life of more than 50-years.

Since demand and mother nature seldom happen at the same time, in order for wind and solar to be useful it requires massive battery banks to store the electricity. These battery banks would take more space than the existing wind farms, have an expected life of 10-years or less, raise the cost more than 100-times, and are an extreme environmental hazard.

Government and environmentalists always lie to you by leaving out most of the truth to further their agenda. Ask questions and learn the truth before you decide what you are hearing is true.

The feds forced everyone to have 10% of their power from "green" (the color of the money) sources. For the cost of this wind power Texas could build 7 nuclear plants and one plant would provide more energy than the wind farms.

Simply put always look at who stands to get rich before you decide something is true. Everything green is really about the money to be made.

The electric car pollutes more than gas cars as does corn ethanol. To charge electric cars requires a source, most of which are fuel fired plants. Converting fuel to electricity loses as much as 60% of the energy, not to mention all the hydrocarbons released.

[Waynno]

+1 dhellew2

Its a farce that sadly sheeple have bought

The mandates here in California will never be met, They got
9 years to get to 33-50%

The environmental work alone will delay that mandate,

Then they still need to get a shovel in the ground.

I see stuff being shoveled, But it aint dirt(nuts)

Bwahh Ha ha

Edit, Check this out
http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_16962181#ixzz19WVKRrTl

Waynno

[voltsandbolts]

Thought I'd "Bump" this and see if it takes off...

V&B