[ihavenofish]

Of course they'll likely use bearings made in Japan or Indoneisa - cast iron from China - electronics from Malaysia or Tiawan - sheet steel from India or New Foundland - stainless steel from Brazil or Africa - rubber from South America - an LCD screen made in Mexico. But, it will be "made" in America....

no. youve missed his point and made mine at the same time.

specifically, the frame castings would be made in "america", or in my specific case canada.

but indeed, virtually everything electro/mechanical would be sourced from japan, taiwan, italy, germany and possibly even china. there simply arent american companies making most of these parts, and the few that are cater to the extreme high end market. even a haas, which is irrelevant in the hobby market of course, uses japanese electrical, japanese rails and screws, and aparently canadian iron castings for some of the frames.

i have had to rethink my target market though in the last few weeks. it started as "a little bit more money for a little bit better" machine. the chinese companies however seem to have found this market appealing themselves however, and we will be seeing machines with quality linear rails, stainless way covers, and other enhancements for "a little bit more money" early next year.

so what do i make? i could make the "best" machine i can, forgetting price, and the hobby user while im at it. or i could go even more basic, and make and make the cheapest machine possible to make quality cnc bench mills more acessible.

[WCIS]

...there is already a few companys that are all U.S.A. made that sell cnc machines....

My apologies... He obviously stated the company was USA made - not the entire machine. I must read more closely.

My friend I try to buy quality wherever, whenever I can. Should your machine meet my needs, is a qulaity peice, and can produce quality work I'd buy one. My shop inventory is truly multi-national and I'm not just referring to all the tiny components that make up each peice of equipment. I have American brands, Japanese brands, Polish brands, and German brands just to name a few. I've had to acquire what I need to perform a specific task from any source that had the tools/tooling/machine.

I think I really understand the point he's trying to make - I just wish he'd take a closer look at the problem as he see's it and do something to try to make a difference rather than get hostile with someone whose looking to begin his own venture building machines - regardless of target market.

In terms of price point for your machine - a hobbyist usually has nothing much more than time on his hands with huge aspirations to go with it. So, I think you will have an even smaller market share than your competition if the price is higher. But, if you think you can profitably build as good a machine for the same selling price you may take some market share from the competition with the made in America/Canada label on the box. My two cents - take it with the the measure of your choice...

[cncjunky]

I agree with WCIS to a certain degree, made in America is parts that are manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. Now on the materials aspect of the conversation the stupid Americans flushed that down the drain along with manufacturing . The bearings don't have to be japanese, you could have your own bearing precision ground, would you do such a thing, no. Do I really blame you, no, japan really isn't that big of problem, I too own japanese machines and love them, they make good machines. Did I buy them new with a healthy price tag, no. I prefer U.S.A. over all else, china now that is a big problem. Make a difference as much as I can, yes 1 person does make a difference if everybody thinks that way, or at least a good majority think that way. More power to U.S.A.... and Canada.

Now as far as me being hostile for asking a question, that is totally absured that I'd be labeled hostile for asking a question. I've seen many many many so called U.S.A. companies selling supposabley U.S.A. parts that actually turned out to be made in china,india, thailand, or any of those dumps. That was what was making me curious about this whole "north america" thing. Bottom line to be legite you need to fully explain yourself, too many loop holes. I am no fool, I'll raise the red flag when I see it.

[ihavenofish]

I think I really understand the point he's trying to make - I just wish he'd take a closer look at the problem as he see's it and do something to try to make a difference rather than get hostile with someone whose looking to begin his own venture building machines - regardless of target market.

i meant the point of the poll/thread. cncjunky has no point other than to hear his own voice.

ive been looking around at whats available in terms of parts, and i this its a challenge to sneak into this market. it is after all not a market that american companies created in the first place.

i can only fall back on what i personally need and want out of this.

1: i want a small tabletop mill no more than 150lbs with high accuracy and performance.

2: i want a large machine for making things from wood and sheet metals.

if i take number 1 as an example, based it on the wiess WMD16V, but design it to use linear rails, good sized ball screws, and adapt a high speed spindle with atc capability, i will get what i want.

the castings, being little over 100lbs will cost under $200 a set. machining them up will be a few hours work.

a blank frame might cost under $1000 at retail (a weiss costs about $700). a "rolling chassis" with c5 screws, hiwin rails, motor mounts, couplings, way covers, and basically everyting needed except spindle and servos could come in under $3000.

make a gecko 540 control with decent steppers, and get one of them water cooled spindles, and youll have a running machine under $5000.

which is the SAME price as the chinese competition, though mine will have tiny bit more travel.

[heilcnc]

the reason i started this poll was i wanted to see if there was a
market for a cnc mini mill that was made from ether American or Canadian
castings gecko drivers Japanese spindle bearings all assembly and machining
done by Americans or Canadians cost more than the Chinese one but stop there flooding of the market keeps more money in north America

[SteveS]

Couple comments.

I've been in a number of tool shops to have high volume steel tools made that cost in excess of $200K each. Unless a very old Hass, all of the CNC are Pacific Rim with a few German thrown in. These people are the north american backbone, but have to buy the best they can afford. These are definetely not hobbyist, but don't throw everything not NA under the bus.

It seems that ShopBot is currently undertaking a study of building a bench top CNC. I filled out a questionaire on requirements. The price tag is probably going to be between $2,500 and $3,000. For that to make sense to make in NA they are looking at the feasibility of injection molded structures and components.

An ealier post hits a target dear to my heart. Every public company in the US is at the mercy of their last quarterly report. Every person holding stock through a 401K (look in a mirror) wants to see their portfolio rise through stock price increase and dividends. CEOs work for the bottom shareholder and go overseas for cheaper prices at their demand in order for the stock price and dividend. I don't know how, but the short term gain mania has to stop in order for long term stability and gains to take over.

Lastly, I was on a defense project some years ago that the goverment master told the supplier to take significant cost from the project. In the end he found that vehicle frame could be delivered FOB the east coast from Thailand (at the time) for less than he could buy the raw steel for in the US. I wasn't privy to the whole background, but think it had to do with government subsidies.

Steve.

[heilcnc]

yes but they are shooting there self in the foot can't they see that it has caught
up to them and people in america and canada do not have money any more that
china has flooded the market and our good jobs are gone so they will start having
trouble selling over hear this was going to happen sometime can not go on forever
walmart does not pay good machine shops do

[SteveS]

yes but they are shooting there self in the foot can't they see that it has caught up to them and people in america and canada do not have money any more that china has flooded the market and our good jobs are gone so they will start having trouble selling over hear this was going to happen sometime can not go on forever walmart does not pay good machine shops do

I do not disagree at all, except all the machine shops in my area have pretty much closed. There are whole industrial parks I could drive you through that are empty due to the machine type shops closing. Most of the privately owned are destined to close when the owner retires because their next generation is not interested in the work load and anxiety involved. Most of the owners sent their kids to college for another career path.

Hopefully (and I am only midly optimistic) those CNC machines coming from China and elsewhere at a lower price will re-energize a spirit in the US to invent and produce at a pace that can't be matched by the lag in time for an idea to be translated over the ocean. Or, the stateside companies will be competitive to that pricing with the same results.

My major hope is that the US is not an enticing market for China small business and they concentrate on their own market. There is huge talent in China to do machining and assembly at the same level as the US can, but currently the shipping and time delay for ocean freight are a big factor for many.

[Newtron]

First I don't want to be banned!
If something in here offends someone,please ask me and I'll remove.
These are the truth that I know,but it could not be the real deal.
But some things must be said!
First: how much does a worker in china makes for a year??
What are their benefits??social secure? health insurance?working conditions??
How are they dealing with their waste and pollution??
Where are the chinese petroleum??their steel??their woods??
Are chinese planning for the next genrations??will there be space,food and goods in a decade??
What will they do to get more food,more oil,more steel??
Will we see another Tibet??
I am not saying that this will happen,but the signs are clear.
And ,if,the other countries ceased now to buy from the chinese ,how would they react??
In other hand...
A worker in the Usa that pays taxes,companies that pays taxes,pay for some kind of 'reward'.
Usa workers have (generally) good health and social insurance,good way of life,nice education,nice entertainement.
And one more thing...USA has called to themselves a kind of 'world police'.
And that costs a lot of money!
We on the other america(that someone a few posts ago sayd darn or something like that about) the latin america.
We do see the american effort to preserve democracy,and we do support this kind of 'police'.
And we do give our workers many of the benefits that americans do(at least we try).
Our products costs a little more than chinese,but they do have a better quality,thats a fact.!
We polute less,we are a democracy,we welcome all foreigners,we have civil rights,we have the largest rain forest in the world,we have the largest pure water reservoir in the world,we are self suficient in steel,oil,and concrete.
All said,I think to myself...What are we doing ??
(yes,we! because our market is also flooded with chinese goods and chinese people!)
We are giving suport to a market that is predatory,that are based on almost slave work,that doesn't give a s*** to enviroment.
If we give a look on the near past,all allies that were helped are now the enemies.
And all friends are relegated to almost no commerce.
Are we making a new (oh man!! now I get banned) Iraq??
Please support your friends in south!
USA is diverting it's force in the wrong direction.

Again:this is just my opinion,not of any group in particular,and if I have offended someone,I apologize in advance.
To my Chinese friends I must say that they also are digging their hole, Such kind of growth without proper bases is a kind of social suicide.
Who will pay the bill?

[cncjunky]

Oh yeah sure china can do good machine work, they as good as U.S.A., no, by no means are they as good as the U.S.A. The jet turbine industry is complete proof of this statement. Does china put out good products, mostly no. For instance just a small ex., I go and buy tires for my vehicle, everytime I go I pick up a tire guage, there free . Well these tire guages are all made in china, out of 10 or more I have picked up over the years, 1 works accurately and reads the same as the U.S. guage . Buying chinese machines to make your American parts is not the way to go, it's totally contradicting everything, still is supporting the comp. Why should anyone buy a part from you a American when they can get it from china cheaper just like you did, hypocracey on your part.
And to "IHaveNOfish" your not to brilliant by giving that chinamen from how mau advice on how to sell his machine to europe, why are you helping the competition, that is what I would call stupidity. You just shot yourself in the foot.
From what I can see there probably is a market for this small junk. You just have to have something that is different from the chinese, which you really don't. But you do have the made in U.S.A. or Canada on your side which I think will be a plus. We all can learn from history, history tells us that the chinese made sacrifice and profitted little, at first. Something that will say North Americans need to follow, you have to compete, if you can sell a machine or any product and be as competitive as possibble making just enough to cover your time in your project, getting a reputable name out there for yourself, taking and making a sacrifice for the future of North America, I beleive our country can bring back manufacturing. That is the only way, it could done, but think about it, the short term you may lose money or proffit very little, but the long term you'll be re-strengthening the dollar and country, the sacrifice will pay off, just like it did for china.

[ihavenofish]

And to "IHaveNOfish" your not to brilliant by giving that chinamen from how mau advice on how to sell his machine to europe, why are you helping the competition, that is what I would call stupidity. You just shot yourself in the foot.

actually its very benificial for me to help how mau make a better machine.

shooting myself in the foot would be what syil is doing - badmouthing the competition yet not actually producing a product that competes with them.

[dertsap]

. Buying chinese machines to make your American parts is not the way to go, it's totally contradicting everything, still is supporting the comp. .

are the cnc machines that you own USA made ? if they aren't ( which i believe you said before they are Japanese) then doesn't your statement make you a hypocrite

[dertsap]

sometimes it seems like its all or nothing with some people , if the bulk of the machine can be built here then it may leave room for growth and the rest could eventually be built here as well but if these things go unsupported then nothing will happen

I watched a program a while back where a Canadian fellow found a way to make quality news print from straw , something which is generally a waste product , cheaply acquired and plentiful , the catch was he still needed to use 20% wood product . All the research and all the machinery was purchased by this one man who had a dream and a brilliant way to cut back the damage to the forests . He had full support from Green Peace . The New York times had set meetings with him to acquire his paper . it was a win win situation . He had a great product to sell and the New York Times was going green which is always a great selling feature . the final meeting was about to happen with this gentleman , the New York Times and green peace . At the very last minute green peace decided that they won't support the man because he still needed to use 20% wood , and they can't support it because this may have meant that old growth wood may have been used (all or nothing ) . with the lack of support from green peace the New York Times saw that it was of no benefit to them to use the product though it was a green product
needless to say the man is still trying to complete his dream , old growth forests are being slaughtered for paper , New York Times is using it and green peace is bit$%ing about it .

[syil]

actually its very benificial for me to help how mau make a better machine.

shooting myself in the foot would be what syil is doing - badmouthing the competition yet not actually producing a product that competes with them.

you konw how much they bad to us for bad mouthing?
i`m not say too bad for them,new products zone,just post NEW products..
we both can see too many refresh by them.

i just make some NEW machines,really NEW....
not a plan or think..ok? if post plan,i have handard.

[syil]

First I don't want to be banned!
If something in here offends someone,please ask me and I'll remove.
These are the truth that I know,but it could not be the real deal.
But some things must be said!
First: how much does a worker in china makes for a year??
What are their benefits??social secure? health insurance?working conditions??
How are they dealing with their waste and pollution??
Where are the chinese petroleum??their steel??their woods??
Are chinese planning for the next genrations??will there be space,food and goods in a decade??
What will they do to get more food,more oil,more steel??
Will we see another Tibet??
I am not saying that this will happen,but the signs are clear.
And ,if,the other countries ceased now to buy from the chinese ,how would they react??
In other hand...
A worker in the Usa that pays taxes,companies that pays taxes,pay for some kind of 'reward'.
Usa workers have (generally) good health and social insurance,good way of life,nice education,nice entertainement.
And one more thing...USA has called to themselves a kind of 'world police'.
And that costs a lot of money!
We on the other america(that someone a few posts ago sayd darn or something like that about) the latin america.
We do see the american effort to preserve democracy,and we do support this kind of 'police'.
And we do give our workers many of the benefits that americans do(at least we try).
Our products costs a little more than chinese,but they do have a better quality,thats a fact.!
We polute less,we are a democracy,we welcome all foreigners,we have civil rights,we have the largest rain forest in the world,we have the largest pure water reservoir in the world,we are self suficient in steel,oil,and concrete.
All said,I think to myself...What are we doing ??
(yes,we! because our market is also flooded with chinese goods and chinese people!)
We are giving suport to a market that is predatory,that are based on almost slave work,that doesn't give a s*** to enviroment.
If we give a look on the near past,all allies that were helped are now the enemies.
And all friends are relegated to almost no commerce.
Are we making a new (oh man!! now I get banned) Iraq??
Please support your friends in south!
USA is diverting it's force in the wrong direction.

Again:this is just my opinion,not of any group in particular,and if I have offended someone,I apologize in advance.
To my Chinese friends I must say that they also are digging their hole, Such kind of growth without proper bases is a kind of social suicide.
Who will pay the bill?

yes,i admit something not going right in china.but we are in change.
but not so bad as your post.maybe you are not been visit us before.
try to come and see more clearly.
tibet people need control no matter use what kind way.NO NEED DEMOCRACY.or xinjiang province.it is china land.someone make trouble,kill them all. 60 years,country spend much to construct those 2 proinvce.they still make troubles...
if change US goverment,i think the leader of tibet will be killed handard times by CIA...

[ihavenofish]

you konw how much they bad to us for bad mouthing?
i`m not say too bad for them,new products zone,just post NEW products..
we both can see too many refresh by them.

i just make some NEW machines,really NEW....
not a plan or think..ok? if post plan,i have handard.

sorry, didnt mean to single you out. theres alot of really crazy statements in this thread though. it was good for comedy in the beginning, but the charm has worn off.

id still like to know how a chinese company can flood the us market with products not one single american company already makes, and why people believe it is the responsibility of others to make machines that comform to their political ideals?

if you want a machine made in the USA, make it yourself. its as simple as that.

[heilcnc]

i am going to call my senator and whoever i can to tell Obama to add syil to the 37%
tariff like the tires so we can start making these over here the cnc mini mills
i think he is on the right track start putting tariffs on the chinese stuff get our
manufacturing back!!!!!!

[ihavenofish]

i am going to call my senator and whoever i can to tell Obama to add syil to the 37%
tariff like the tires so we can start making these over here the cnc mini mills
i think he is on the right track start putting tariffs on the chinese stuff get our
manufacturing back!!!!!!

so you think the right idea is to make a $4500 machine 37% more expensive so an american company can enter a new market with a product that will STILL cost more, AND have no customers because the price is now to high, THEN have all the legitimate USA companies that make accesories for these chinese machine go bankrupt.

i really dont know what to say anymore. you are willfully ignorant to reality.

tarrifs will put the final nail in the coffin of industrial manufacturing in the US.

[asuratman]

Hello goodday,
This thread is too politic. Here many people from different country with different opinion, endless talk for politic discussion. What you gonna do with the machine design? New product was released, can you compete with X7 if you make it? Why not compete on the latest design, with the linear slide, casting is more simple. Not many machining such as dove tail.

[heilcnc]

if you bring that $4500 mill up to $6165 that would give the usa and canada a fair chance at the field so i am not as ignorant as you think