[ImanCarrot]

I'm the only person at my place that does Diamond Machining. I do it quite well... in fact so well that orders are ramping up to the point where i got so much work that I come in early, leave late and work through lunch... aint had a holiday (including Xmas) since October last year.

My boss wants me to train someone up. M & G Code programming for CNC turning, ACAD design, QA measurement on Talysurf etc etc.

My question is... would you lot do it for nothing? or am I just being selfish?

Cheers.

Iain.

[Carel]

Legally it is quite simply. The Intellectual Property is owned by the business. If you are self-employed the IP belongs to you. If you are employed the IP belongs to the boss. They created the environment making it possible to create the IP for.... them. I have had customers who wanted detailed drawings, source software etc. . There is no way they get it. A boss asks in principle for what is his. You should see their valuing of this situation by the end of the month on your bankaccount. The labour of training can be seen as a different type of employment, a trainer-trainee situation, which should put you in another scale. So story told, if you take the last choice as employee, they can call it obstruction.

Carel

[Verfur]

Strange situation,

I to have ben there. Here is the thing to keep in mind is it took you years to get realy good at what you do and it will most likly take a long time for some one else to get as good as you are now this is a piont that need to be told to your boss. This is a two sided coin in the event he (your boss) is getting you some help (I.E. all work no play, will age you very quickly) AKA burnt out.

Seeing as you will have to teach and be responsible for what is learned I would think a raise in pay would be in order. Else the alternate is a new job or self imployment.
This is a strong possition to be in, handle it more commen sense and less emotion and it should work out great for all.

John

[HuFlungDung]

You may notice while you are training someone that your combined productivity rate goes in the toilet for a while, but that your wage continues to be paid. If you were the boss, this would mean that you would be working overtime to still complete the work until the new employee becomes productive enough to help attack the pile of work.

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion. YOU need to have a life, and take vacations, because at the end of the trail, work is a means to an end, not the end in itself. A new trainee can help you get your life back.

[lakeside]

If you don't pass the skill along than no one would know anything the only thing that should die with age is a bad attitude

[sdantonio]

It depends on what you mean by "training him for free". If I were asked to come in on my own time and train him (after work... for free) then I would say "hell no". If it were part of work, and getting paid for it, then it is part of the job.

In some cases, machining simple parts is just a matter of throwing a substrate on the CNC and pushing go. In other cases, and I assume diamond machining is one of them, it's an art. No matter how good you are as a teacher, and no matter how good your student is, you may not be able to pass alone the "art" part of it. I know some people who are very good at doing, but suck at teaching. I also know some people who are very good at teaching, but I wouldn't let them near a machine if they were the last technician in the place.

In my case I make violins. I can take a piece of wood and flex it in my fingers or tap on it and listen to the tone and tell a lot from it. One skill I have been developing recently is the sound of the scraper or plane as it cuts through the wood changes as the wood becomes thinner and nearer to the perfect thickness. This is the art part of my work that really can't be taught, but must be experienced over many years. And either you feel it or you don't. I'm assuming that at least half of what you do is at the art level like that.

It sounds like what your talking about is putting together a whole cariculum (writing out a teaching plan, lecture notes, getting it approved by the boss for completeness, and then teaching it). May take several weeks of dedicated work. Can your boss really afford to not have you on the machine for that long?

And if there were another company in the area who could use your skills for a higher wage. And if you left without the time to train a replacement (two weeks would not be enough). Then you boss would be really screwed and your skills would be safe.

Steven

[mxtras]

If the knowledge was gained 'on the clock' then you have no choice but to pass it on 'for free'. In this case, the company paid you to learn it therefore the knowledge is not your property.

Scott

[lakeside]

The Knowledge maynot be yours but the skill is and when you go so will the skill

[sdantonio]

Believe it or not, work is not the be all and end all of your life. It is a diversion.

The VP of one of the companies I used to work for used to tell me family is first. Family is up here (yeah you can't see the hand gesture)

Work is second. It is down here.

But it is a long way between family and work. Family is always that much more important.

[ImanCarrot]

Many thanks for the replies... keep em comming.

I can clear up one point. My 20 years of optical knowledge was not gained at this job- I've only been here for 6 months. I gained it at various companies- Barr & Stroud, Atomic Weapons Research Est, British Aerospace and MBDA Missile System to name a few.

I can see both sides and am all mixed up... dunno what to do.

Iain

[lakeside]

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

[sdantonio]

if you were hire to machine that your job not to train without compensation it your skill the want you to share if the want you to share knowledge give them a book

Better yet, if you have the time, write the book and charge them for it.

A lot of the stuff their asking for is basic though, the cad/cam stuff. For that you can just give them a book or tell then to send your student out for a course.

[JerryFlyGuy]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work. Ie, I've been researching and getting my head around CNC for the past 6-8 months. I've invested about 2-6 hr's each and every day and usually even more than that on weekends [ I know I don't have a life, so don't bother telling me ] , now say my boss finds out what I'm doing in my garage and say's "great, now you can design/build me a plasma cutter for the shop" Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

[WhiteTiger]

I was in the same position a few times. Mostly I just taught as opportunity presented and that was fine with everyone.

One instance though, I was working commission and told the owner that I'd train if they assigned the trainee to me as a helper and paid me commission on his completions to offset my lost time/income. Turned out the "boss" was just looking for freebies and got pretty upset that I wouldn't agree to be penalised for his benefit.

Case by case consideration, I suppose.


Tiger

[WhiteTiger]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what about info that you've accumulated outside of work.... Can I say NO, not w/out paying me for the info I've got in my head.??

Curious...

Jerry

Of course you can say no and insist on a separate negotiation aside from your employment. The employer has no investment in your knowledge of cnc and no claim on it.

Might cost you the job, if the employer has the rather typical feudal attitude about employees (ie- serfs to be ordered about at whim), but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time and effort and has nothing to do with the employer, hence is not the employers to lay claim to in any fashion. (imo, anyway)


Tiger

[Carel]

JerryFlyGuy: Skills you develop separately from your work at home (like inventing winecorkscrew #65892 as a bookkeeper) are your own Intellectual Property. If your boss wants to use incidentaly these skills, you make an agreement for the case and charge according to the agreement.

Carel

[lakeside]

but your knowledge of cnc is the result of your own off the job time (imo, anyway)
Tiger

THAT THE QUESTION WHAT DID YOU REALY LEARN OFF THE JOB. MOST CNC PROGRAMER AND SET-UP PEOPLE LEARN ON THE JOB AND ON THE CLOCK. IF YOUR THE LEADMAN THEN IT'S YOUR JOB. DESIGN LIKE GERRY tHE FLY SAYS IS NOT CNC. BUT ENGEERING THAT SOMETHING YOUR BOSS HAS TO PAY FOR. WEATHER IT YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE. BUT WHEN IT ON PAPER THE MACHINIST MUST DO WHAT THE PRINT SAYS EVEN IF YOU KNOW IT WRONG!!

[vacpress]

ive taught alot of people alot of things. it always has and always will make me happy.

beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up - add to that the craftyness of diamond\gem cutting and what you really have is probably a chance for a)an easier job(assuming you are on salary) b)the possibility of becomming the leader of a whole division of gem cutters.... c)the chance to learn something yourself throguh pupil\mentor interaction... d)the chance to really show your employeer how valuable you are when they see how long it takes another person to assume your responsibilities.

calling this 'free' is disingenuous and snotty. you didnt learn how to operate these extremely expensive machines and processes in your backyard - you learned it on other people machines. AND they paid you... they didnt even do it for free. they taught you for NEGATIVE $s.. suckers!

[mxtras]

...beleive me. your 30 years of optical experience will not be stolen by some trainee. assuming half your skill is based on hands on experience, it would take decades for most people to catch up....

Excellent point and well put!

It sounds like this job is as much (or more) of an art than it is a process (the diamond machining part, not the CAD or software aspect). There is little a trainee can do other than attempt to gain your artistic insights. Perhaps the training you provide will shave a few years off the learning curve, but it still takes experience and that's not, as you know, exactly teachable.

Scott

[lakeside]

it is kind of funny that we will help out each other on this site. But can't do it a work?