[PaulHenneberry]

Hi,
I hope somebody can point me in the right direction to get a three axis router where X is rotary working? I previously built a 3axis linear router with the same hardware and software as this new machine and use it a lot so am sort of familiar with how the stuff works together. The new machine is an upgraded old graphograph engraving machine with an ESS and a Gecko G540. I use fusion on a hobby licence and mach4. It will mainly be used as ZY linear and X rotary but could have the rotary drive replaced with a table and converted to a 3 axis linear occassionally.

Im struggling to set up the new rotaryX config but have set homing, motor pulses and have got the machine functioning and can jog all 4 axis. I have set up two different mach4 profiles – one with 3x linear and another with 2x linear and X as rotary. The 3x linear profile is working fine and I just cloned it for the X rotary profile and set the X(0) in axis mapping to motor3 which is the gecko A drive output. Ive tuned the pulses for motor3 and when I jog X, the rotary goes around accurately. The X display on the main screen still shows mm but it goes up by 360 for one full rev. (learning about screen config change from mm to deg can wait for another day).

I designed a simple cylinder in fusion CAD and did a CAM face operation as a test. When posted and run, the rotaryX does rotate by a few degrees but the Y only plunges and cuts a short curve at either end of the cylinder. It retracts Z and jumps the middle of the cylinder?

I’m not sure if my problem is with fusion, the post processor or Mach4? I am aware that the fusion hobby license excludes 4 axis rotational which is why I went for 2 different three axis profiles.

There isnt much info on the forums about what I’m trying to do but my best guess was that I needed to define a specific machine in the fusion machine library so the post processor would create for an X rotary? Up until this bit I have been reasonably confident in what I’m doing but I’m well out of my comfort zone now so please jump in and correct me. There isnt a lot on youtube about the fusion machine library and this is where I’m stuck. I downloaded an autodesk generic 3 axis router from the fusion machine library and from what I read started playing with the kinemetrics settings and this is where my confusion starts. I tried deleting X and then expected to be able to re-add it as a rotary but only A,B and C can be selected as the rotary coordinate and I guess naming it X doesnt achieve anything? And if I just config it with ZY and rotaryA it comes up with error box about not enough defined axis? I checked the “rotate around Y” box but that didnt help. I had hoped to select the rotary machine as the set up machine in the CAM but cant define it with a X rotary?

I use the CNC Routerparts (mach3mill)/cnc routerparts postprocessor for my big 3 axis linear router and it also works for the 3 linear axis profile on this new build. To get this new rotaryX profile working, will that postprocessor work or will I need to use a different one and could this be the problem?

Advice on the proper way of configuring this would be very much appreciated. And why this strange config I hear you ask? I want to use it for making wax molds for lost wax casting.

Cheers
Paul

[awerby]

How does that machine work? Does the whole rotary axis assembly move back and forth? If so, that would normally be defined as the X axis, and the rotary axis would be A. It seems that you've confused the post generator by calling it X, so it's not finding enough axes. If you're using a G540, you've got 4 axes to play with, so try defining the side-to-side motion as Y, the front-to-back motion of the rotary axis assembly as X, the up-down motion of the spindle as Z, and the rotary motion as A. I'd also eliminate the 360 rollover and allow unlimited motion for the rotary axis. Mach3 also wants you to enter a small diameter value instead of zero.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I use Mach4 and have a fourth (and a fifth) axis. I use Fusion as my CAM.

To my knowledge Fusion (Basic)will allow 3 axis + 1 axis indexing, but not 4 axis simultaneous. For 4 and 5 axis simultaneous you need Fusion Machining Extensions, and they are expensive, somewhere in the $1200USD/year range.
I paid $2437NZD this last year, which includes 15% GST, an NZ tax.

I see also that you have TCP checked, Mach4 does not support TCP. Second issue is that the Fusion Mach4 Post is four axis, but you need to 'turn on' the fourth axis. It is disabled as it ships from Autodesk.
You need to open the post and edit one of two lines and that will turn the A axis on.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I think also you are maybe making to much of the X axis also being a rotary axis.

In Mach4 you may have six axes, although not all a used or enabled. For instance if you have a three axis machine and each of those axes has a motor assigned.....what would happen if
you just turned one off? In short nothing. The machine would move only the two remaining enabled axes while the third stayed still.

May I suggest that you actually have a four axis machine, but two configurations, one with three linear axes and the fourth rotary axis turned off, and the other with two linear axes, one rotary axis and one linear axis
turned off.

In your case you have just the one motor. Lets guess that the motor is called Motor0 and is assigned to the linear X axis. Motor1 and Motor2 would be assigned to the Y and Z axes respectively.
Now define a Motor3 and assign that to the A axis. Motor0 and Motor3 are the same, or rather both motor designations refer to the same piece of hardware. In one configuration you would disable,
or rather not supply an Enable signal to Motor3 (your rotary axis), while in the other configuration Motor0 would be disabled. In fact the actual motor could get motion signals from either the Motor0 port
OR the Motor3 port.

In Fusion's Mach4 Post you can assign a rotary axis to be parallel to any one of the linear axes. Conventionally, the A axis is parallel to the X axis, the B axis is parallel to the Y axis and the C axis is parallel to the Z axis.
Probably wise to stick to the conventional terms, but it is not strictly necessary to do so.

Craig

[PaulHenneberry]

Hi Awerby and Craig,
thanks for your replies and help. Craig: I'm near Perth in Western Australia and with you in NZ we are almost neighbours in this global city. Good to know the fusion hobby restrictions aren't quite as severe as I thought although I'd struggle to justify $2k for software for my hobby.
It seems that you both think that my problem is related to axis assignments and where the rotary A resides. To be clear, there are four separate steppers wired to the gecko g540 and they all jog. I just swapped the X and Y stepper wiring at the gecko (I think I could have swapped this in the axis mapping but the gecko is labelled and wanted to keep things tidy) So I now have Z up and down, Y left and right on the gantry and X is in and out on the table. The rotary A is fixed to the moving X table. Y now becomes redundant in the profile? I redefined and axis in the CAD setup for the test cylinder. The outside surface of the cylinder is the selected contour for a facing operation. The tool path simulation (in the attached picture) just cuts a small face at either end of the stock without any rotation and when I run it on the machine that is all I get?

I tried disabling the Y axis in axis mapping (thinking it wasnt doing anything) but the G code ran down a few lines and stopped with a "axis 1 commanded while disabled?". Then after reenabling the Y axis and just for fun I made motor 3 a slave of motor 0 and reran the same post. I got maybe +/-5 deg on the rotary and but it still only machined the end of the cylinder?

Awerby, I found the rollover setting you mentioned and tried it with A rollover on and off and got the same cutting behavior. I have left it off.

Craig, If you have a few spare minutes could you please elaborate on "Second issue is that the Fusion Mach4 Post is four axis, but you need to 'turn on' the fourth axis. It is disabled as it ships from Autodesk.
You need to open the post and edit one of two lines and that will turn the A axis on".

Thanks again for your assistance. Your patience with these dumb newbie questions is commendable and appreciated.
cheers
Paul

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I've been using Fusion for several years, and have been paying the subscription for Fusion (Basic) for four years. I've long since come to the conclusion that Fusion (Basic) offers about the
most cost effective CAD/CAM solution out there. There are no doubt others whom think otherwise, but if you start comparing apples with apples then I believe my assertion is correct.
While CNCing was a hobby, and only a hobby, I now use it daily for my business and would go broke without it. I can say that the Fusion (Basic) subscription is peanuts against the value
I get from it.

About two years ago I made a fourth axis, and then I wanted toolpaths that exploited it....and for that I mean simultaneous four axis. I got into Fusion Machining Extensions, and to be fair to
Autodesk they certanily pulled out all the stops and discounted it to the extent I took Fusion Machining Extension up. The truth is however I do not really use it enough to justify its cost.....but as time
progresses I use it more and more. I certainly hope to be able to continue with the subscription. In particular I have made a fifth axis now as well, and having Fusion Machining Extensions or
some similar solution is mandatory to get any use out of it.

I did quite a bit of research regarding simultaneous four and five axis CAM solutions, and found that Fusion Machining Extensions to be hands down the best value for money. Most of the other solutions
start at $10k for a perpetual license.Thus my Fusion Machining Extensions is 1/5th the cost albeit a subscription.

I tried disabling the Y axis in axis mapping (thinking it wasn't doing anything) but the G code ran down a few lines and stopped with a "axis 1 commanded while disabled?"

If you disable an axis in Mach4, but the Gcode file includes command for that axis then you'll get a fault. If you disable and axis you must also remove all commands in the Gcode file.

Craig, If you have a few spare minutes could you please elaborate on "Second issue is that the Fusion Mach4 Post is four axis, but you need to 'turn on' the fourth axis. It is disabled as it ships from Autodesk.
You need to open the post and edit one of two lines and that will turn the A axis on".

A Post is a program written in Javascript that processes the raw ouput of Fusion and generates Gcode compliant to your controller.
When you are fiddling with the Machine Definition pages you are trying to set visually what the machine is and therefore what the resultant Gcode should look like. In short you are trying to visulaly
program a post. I have not used that facility....yet.

The more direct method is to open the Fusion Mach4 Post and find that section that is responsible for generating the Gcode for a rotary axis. I got help from the Fusion forum. Basically you edit a line or two
and that enables the fourth axis in the post. It has been some time since I did it and cannot remember the details, but there is plenty of guidance to be had on the forum. There is also a 300 page document
describing how Fusion posts work and all the reference details you might need to write or edit your own.
The pictured code is the few lines (of several thousand) that do that.

Craig

[awerby]

DeskProto has several continuous 4th axis strategies, plus 5h axis indexing, and it's a lot more reasonable, especially for hobbyists. You get a permanent license that doesn't have to be renewed every year. It does assume you're using a rotary axis parallel to X, https://computersculpture.com/deskproto/

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
yes, I did look very closely at DeskProto. I seem to recall about $1000 and that got you fair simultaneous four axis and indexing fifth axis. But have you seen
the videos about using the indexing fifth? Looked like a real battle.

So, yes I did look at it and value for money its not too bad at all, but is just incapable of simultaneous five axis, even indexing five axis is fraught.

DeskProto is much cheaper than any of the genuine simultaneous five axis solutions, but in truth is really only a four axis solution.

Craig

[PaulHenneberry]

Hello again
And again I want to thank everybody (especially Craig) who replied and helped me understand the issues.
I eventually found a link on the fusion forum that explained the limit of the hobby license and any 4 axis CAM is not permitted. It would seem that running ZXA is considered 4 axis. I wasnt configuring the CAM quite right and finally found the 4 axis setting and was presented with the invitation window to spend lots of money. So running any type of rotary is not an option unless I upgrade to standard plus the manufacturing extension which is not really an option for something I do on the weekends as a hobby with no intention of selling a product. Shame 'cos after two years I'm finally getting sort of comfortable with fusion.
I've spent a few days looking at the separate CAD and CAM software options. It seems I'm not alone in being turned off by the subscription models so a perpetual license condition narrowed the choices. Top of the list at this stage is Rhino3D and DeskProto. Shapr3D was my first choice and looked terrific but it is a subscription model. I see the limited updates with perpetual licenses a bonus as I can settle into some software that isnt continually changing as fusion seems to. Also, I run a copy of fusion on my laptop as my main design tool and a another on a computer that runs my cnc routers all on a slow internet connection. Too often I'll open fusion on my laptop to design something and it wants to update which takes typically 15 minutes. I'll then move over to the router computer to finesse the CAM and postprocess and it also wants to update and there goes another 15 minutes.
cheers
Paul

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

So running any type of rotary is not an option unless I upgrade to standard plus the manufacturing extension

Couple of points:

Fusion Basic does support 3+1 axis out of the box. So, to say that Fusion does not do four axis is incorrect, it does three axis plus an indexing fourth axis.
IF you want or need genuine simultaneous four axis, then yes, Fusion Machining Extensions are required.

If you compare Fusion Basic CAD and CAM features you will find that it compares to the Standard Pro versions of Rhino CAM, Aspire etc. Those Standard Pro editions cost around
$2000 plus annual fees if you wish to have it stay up to date. Thus a Fusion Basic subscription is about 1/3 to 1/4 of a perpetual license of equivalent features.

Like you I was very much against the idea of a subscription.....UNTIL......I did the comparison and found that the subscription is BETTER value for money than any perpetual license.

When it comes to CAD/CAM that is capable of simultaneous four and five axis, they START at $10,000 plus annual fees for perpetual licensed software, and in that circumstance
Fusion Basic plus Fusion Machining extensions is about 1/4 to 1/5th of the closest competing perpetual licensed software.

The bottom line is that Autodesk have thought long and hard about the price of their subscriptions and they work out cheaper than nearly all the genuinely capable alternatives....and they bloody well know it!
Now that I have done the analysis of other software I have come to appreciate that Fusion gives me the best value for money, whether I like subscriptions or not.

If there is anything I really don't like about Fusion is the cloud base model. If the internet is slow or stops....so does your work. I live rurally and the internet is just patchy enough that it's not practical to
use Fusion from home. My business is in the city, and the internet is fine 99% of the time. My work PC is never turned off, and Fusion is perpetually open on it. I don't think I've ever had to wait for an
update, it does it automatically. Sometimes it will ask, but I just defer it until I'm no longer using Fusion, and it updates in its own time.

One thing that Fusion wins hands-down is that it has so many modules. It has a PCB design module with schematic capture and a SPICE modeler. It has an FEA module. It can do thermal modelling.
It can do generative design. All-in-all Autodesk have pulled all those functionalities together into one reasonably consistent package. My business is dependent on electronics and electronics design
so Fusion is the best package. Many of the standalone PCB software are perfectly good but they have crap or no CAD/CAM, whereas Fusion does both, nearly seamlessly.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
Fusion Basic does not prevent you from writing four and/or five axis code manually. If you wish Fusion to generate those tool paths, then you need Machining Extensions.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
RhinoCAM Expert at $2000 is the least version that has simultaneous four axis.
RhinoCAM Pro at $4000 is Expert plus indexed five axis
RhinoCAM Premium at $8000 is simultaneous five axis plus tool path editing, ie the 'fullhouse'

None of these prices include any annual fees to keep it updated, and if I were paying $8000 for some software I'd pretty much insist that it stay up to date, I could not afford to buy anew five years down the track.

Looks like Vcarve at $450 has 'wrapped rotary' support as does Aspire at $2500.

Craig