[philbur]

What level of reliability testing would you expect to have been done before you are willing to head for the hills leaving you mill to potentially eat itself. I have no experience with commercial machines but I can imagine they have been subjected a rigorous failure mode analysis and as a consequence have a range of safety features fitted. Like closed loop servos for example.

Phil

There is no way I would stand around and watch the thing run, the minute I was comfortable with the G Code running on it's own without boring a hole through it's own T Slot table I would shut out the shop lights and head down to the local Mexican resturant for Enchilada's and Corona's or better yet I would leave the lights on, point a webcam at it and go hiking in the hills with my kid, every now and again I could fire up the Verizon wireless PDA and see how things are going back at the shop

[PoppaBear10]

come on guys...... It is a simple tool changer........ just built tough, and it works, it is NOT the be all end all of tool changers. If you want all the super duper dual feed back servos, and Wiz-bang O sensors, then the cost becomes more than the tormach.......

It is a simple ATC, It rotates and changes tools for you, it has a few sensors to see if the pistions moved in/out and back, plus a Home...... that is it. It does Tool Changes but it does not sense: Tool Breakage, tools in holders, dual feed back, and other high end stuff. If you want that buy a Mazack, Mori, Haas, whatever....

here is where things currently stand, I didnt like the low tension of the claws to hold the tools, so I had some differing tension claws made. I will be testing them to see which one works best when I return to the States Sunday. Then when I pick that one, I will have the remaining 11 claws cut, and installed, I will do a few more test and then ship the whole thing off Back to Tormach for them to play with it.

If there appears to be alot of True interest in these I will manufacture them as Turn Key Kits. If not, I will probably offer them as Kits and you can build them your self and add all the Fancey sensors you want

The great thing is, it is a Mach3 control so you can customize to your hearts desire, any thing you dont like or want to add!!

scott

[smallblock]

Ah- the eternal problem of the manufacturer- no matter what you offer them they always want more- but never want to pay more.

[nicad]

Very interested in this product. I read through the thread, but did not find mention of how much force your spring applies to the drawbar for tool retention, and how much force is applied to the drawbar for compressing the spring + popping the "stuck" collet out (PSI * piston surface area * lever advantage).

Thanks-
Colin

[PoppaBear10]

that is because I didnt post it...........

scott

[Bowman]

Nice job on the ATC. I can understand the costs associated with spec parts that don't come cheap. My main thought would be how many commercial users of the Tormach are there that might be interested in such a addon? As many have said the price is up there when compared to the mill itself and if made as built to last that is to be expected.

Just seems like a real full blown commercial shop would likely already have ATC's that came with the larger VMC's they are likely to have. Have you any idea what size market you may have for this or did you start out to make one for yourself and later thought about marketing it as well?

Seems like the mill itself went up in price since my last visit to CNCZone. My daughter can not get out of college quick enough so I can afford so machine tools!!!!!

[David Bord]

Monitoring these boards and user groups, it becomes obvious this machine, while not specifically designed for, it is being used for comercial applications. Its also obvious a machine of its accuracy and capabilities with an ATC is at least double if not much more, and MUCH easier and cheaper to service.

When you think of the machine with a ATC for approx 10K, it seems like a great deal to me. While I wish it was going to be less expensive so I could justify it as toy to use with my mill for hobby use, I can see it being a fair price and a hot seller when Scott delivers on his ATC.

David

[PoppaBear10]

David,

thank you sir.

Scott

[PoppaBear10]

ATC Update:

There is going to be a delay in the release, I am having trouble balancing swing Arm speed vs. Tool claw clamping power. Every time I get it tuned, the next day if the air tempature changes I have to readjust swing arm speed.
If it goes to fast the impact will move the Tool holders out of position in the claw. To slow and it will not seat fully when grasping the tool.

So, I am changing out the Swing Arm Air cylinder to a Electric Acutator instead, this will give me control over speed, and exact control over the ends of motion. This will push me back a little, since I will fabricate the actuator from ground up, hopefully not long at all. I will then do some deep cutter test, to check the Tool grip in the spindle, (I will probably do this in the next day or two), if the tool slips then I will goto a stackable Pancake cylinder and custom Drawbar length at that point).

I did discuss the previously raised issues with Greg of Tormach about the pressure being applied to the Spindle bearings since there where others here who raised those concerns. Greg said as long as I am not banging against the bearings like a Hammer blow, they are rated to handle FAR more thrust loads than I am applying now even if I double or tripled it. He said what will kill the bearings is a Hammer style blow that produces 10's of thousands of pounds of force in a super short period of time.

Cutter Test: The cutter test I will do will be in 6061 AL, with a high spiral AL Mill Bit, like the Video shows. If the holder starts to creep out, I will then goto the higher value force Pancake cylinders, plus higher Belviels and custom Draw bar length.

Thank you, and as always I will keep you abreast of changes and updates as they occur.

Scott

[seanreit]

good work scott, can't wait to hear more.

[zephyr9900]

I did discuss the previously raised issues with Greg of Tormach about the pressure being applied to the Spindle bearings...

Thank you for checking on that, Scott.

Best regards,

Randy

[PoppaBear10]

Well spent all day Modeling the "Linear Acutator" in Rhino, man, I just LOVE Rhino!!
At any rate, it is done, I made my own actuator using standard "rack and pinion" with an AC motor with end of travel switches. The only thing I didnt like was it puts the Rail sticking out the back of the machine about 16", so I redesigned the Motor actuator head, and hit a compromize of overhanging read distance vs. pushing/Pulling power Angle.

At any rate, I will get up progress reports once I get the physcal part done, and integrated into the PLC and Mach.

scott

[sharpshooter90]

There are a couple of good lessons to be learned here for guys thinking of designing their own machines or parts-
1. The basic concept usually comes together fast and easy, but its the unanticipated issues that create the most work and problems.
2. Once the designer has built / re- built, tested and re-tested the thing, it will go into the hands of the end users- then the fun really begins. More issues, suggestions complaints etc.
It certainly makes one appreciate the guys who are trying to design a machine and translate their ideas to some Chinaman 10,000 miles away.

[camosoul77]

He said what will kill the bearings is a Hammer style blow that produces 10's of thousands of pounds of force in a super short period of time.Scott

We call that 'impact loading.' Exactly what dead-blow hammers are intended to avoid.

[camosoul77]

Did this project go stale?

[sharpshooter90]

It could be in hibernation mode due to the economy or a victim of " tunnel vision". As a product, I visualize the Tormach as a high end home garage machine. Designed for the semi-professional who wants to be able to produce things to a higher tolerance than those low priced bench mill conversions or old used Bridgeports. With a realistically delivered and running price around 12-15K, it is 1/2 of a Haas machine. I don't visualize it as the kind of machine you would find if you walked into a big commercial shop run by experienced pros. Therefore the ATC is really a luxury item for this one man garage band- not a necessity. When times are good, people tend to spend on convenience items like the Starbucks drive up window. But this is 2008, and people are now making coffee at home and taking it to work in an old fashioned thermos. The other issue with the idea is that it is machine specific, so the designer is not only at the mercy of the economy, but also the fortunes of Tormach, which according to some other posts here, are uncertain. If the ATC designer is doing it as a commercial venture, he may be better off to make it a universal design that could be adapted to the myriad machines on the market. On the other hand, he might just be doing it for the enjoyment of seeing if it works.

[MichaelHenry]

The other issue with the idea is that it is machine specific, so the designer is not only at the mercy of the economy, but also the fortunes of Tormach, which according to some other posts here, are uncertain.

I suspect that those casting aspersions on Tormach's financial viability are very unlikely to have any informed idea of how well Tormach is doing. It would be interesting to find out how many of the more vocal critics have even seen a Tormach mill in person, let alone used one.

Mike

[norvil1]

I suspect that those casting aspersions on Tormach's financial viability are very unlikely to have any informed idea of how well Tormach is doing. It would be interesting to find out how many of the more vocal critics have even seen a Tormach mill in person, let alone used one.

Mike

i totally agree.

[keithorr]

ditto.
I've seen really good vendors suffer from ignorant speculation. Some folks are more than happy to pile on without having first hand information. (chair)

If you read the same thing three times on the internet then it must be true, right?

[PoppaBear10]

Project is still going, waiting on some information from Tormach and crew.
Had to do a revamp on the air cyclinders and adding a shock absorber.

I have to work the "ATC" project in between "Paying" work. So, when a job comes up, I have to take it to be able to continue forward with the ATC project. The Economy..........well, it is what it is, we all have to deal with what the corrupt polititions have caused to us all.

Tormach: I personally have NO complaints about the Machine, it works well and does what the company says it will do. I have done some other work for Tormach and have seen them personally go the Extra TWO miles for a customer that was having issues. I just hope that I can do as well as they do in the customer support area, they are amazing, and have ALOT of talented and knowledgeable people on thier staff.

The Machine fills a "Nitch" that no one else does, and it does it well.
If you want a Haas or what ever, Pony up and get one.

Adaptablility: The ATC "Design" can be easily adapted to any Machine just a matter of mechanical scale, (as long as they are running Mach3 that is).

scott