[Blanshan91]

To: CNC Dude

I have been honest and not slanderous. I was sold a program which said it can be run on Vista but it has problems which I have addressed to Noel at BobCad and he said it was my computers fault....I then told Noel I loaded the software on another Vista laptop and it had the same problems.....I asked Noel at BobCad if the have tested this on a Vista PC and he said they did not have any Vista PS's at Bobcad, so you need to have a talk with Noel about this....Regardless, I told the salesmen that I run Vista for my business and he sold it to me anyways and it doesn't work for me, it is not stable so I asked for my money back and was sent a letter in the mail that I would not get it....I then talked to Brian at Bobcad and he told me that I will not get me moneyback and that Bobcad is designed to run with XP not Vista platforms and that I had 30 days to review the software before buying it, which we both know you can not generate G-coge in Demo mode.....It was sold to me and will not do what I need it to do....I have sent a few files to Bobcad for them to review because of bugs and I did not get one reply about them......And yea, I am pissed...I am out of money and can't get it back....I got ripped off.....If Bobcad was a good company, then they would be more than happy to issue me a refund but I have asked more than two time and get nothing......Fine, I will sell it on ebay then.......Thank you bobcad

P.S. Warning others about bobcad software in Vista and refund problems is not slander...........I am not getting off on this, just want what is mine back and be on my way.....but obviously it will not happen.


________________________________________
Bill,
After looking deeper, I understand that there may have been some Vista issues that were investigated and that are continuously being looked at. However, for the record, it is important that when you post threats and complaints of this nature that you be honest and straight rather than general and slanderous. The majority of your complaints that we have on record have to do with general software usage and indeed training. There is an abundance of training available at all levels of the software in which we can deliver if you would avail yourself to these solutions. Many customers do, and many customers achieve great success. In the future it would be recommended that you post honest and accurate data so as to not mislead the general public that are actually seeking out effective manufacturing solutions.

CNC Dude

[tobyaxis]

You have my sincere condolences Bill. I will ask you not to post anymore Threads on this matter. Any farther discussion should be done in private with BCC and their staff.

Thank You.

[Blanshan91]

You bet......

[Khalid]

I think the BobCad staff shud be bold enough to accept the faults of their program running in Vista...n they shud clearly guide n tell the persons about the issues with VISTA...

BobCad is a nice good program with tremendous efforts put in it...but the program not to be sell with any exaggeration...

[tikka308]

Is it a private matter? If Blanshan helps fellow users (and future users) make more educated decisions about a software's compatibility and/or a software company's willingness (or lackthereof) to go the extra mile, I'd certainly like to hear it.

[Techmachineman]

Come on Toby be serious. I enjoy reading most of your posts but you have got to get off Bobcads high horse. You can sit here and wiggle there wally and it's ok but yet someone voice's there opinion and there personal expierience and you tell them to stop. When I was looking for software, I wish I had seen more reviews. Fair evaluations need to be given. Not just by those who wiggle there wally's.

[The One]

Bill,

Here is the original email, that you sent to Brian Oliver on November 11 in its' entirety. To maintain your privacy I have omitted your contact information.

Brian,

I own the V22 software and I have the latest version on my computer (22.022). I got your email address from a technical support person there at Bobcad because I wanted to report some bugs in the software, which subsequently have cost me production loss.

Bug-1
The ability to drill multiple holes under one program is still not work right with this version. If I program to drill two holes, the first hole drills fine but the second only pecks the surface but does not drill to the proper depth. It shows it does using predator but not when running the G-code on my machine. I am using a mach3 post processor using XP operating software.

Bug-2
When cutting a pocket, I cannot change the milling direction of the cut; I can when cutting a profile but not a pocket. I can change the “contour direction” on the drawing itself but it doesn’t change in “verify” or when cutting.

Bug-3
I noticed that when Bobcad rights the G-code and then I save/post and then say I want to make a last minute change and write the G-code again, it does not let me, the screen display in “Posting” stays blank and the code in the file isn’t written right. When this happens, I have to shut the program down and then turn it back on to write G-code again.

Bug-4
Whenever I open Bobcad software, the “Post” will have my previous selected post, in my case Mach3 which is good, but with this version of software it only shows mach3 on the screen like it is supposed to but is what is actually loaded, it is still loading the default “Fanuc” post in the back ground. Every time I open Bobcad, I have to go into “select post processor” and select my mach3. If I forget to do this (and I have), I naturally have problems on my mill and then have to come back to Bobcad software and re-select the right post processor and then re-write the proper G-code which then leads me into Bug-3. Big problem…

It may not be easy to understand what I am trying to explain in this email so if you need to call me about these bugs, please call me……I like how Bobcad works, but I really need a fully functional program right now and was talked into buying the Bobcad 2007 software and for the most part, it has been a user friendly program, but it has any bugs and it has a habit of crashing all the time, which has cost me more delays…….I also purchased a $4500 Dell XPS laptop to run this program and to work from and it has Vista. I cannot run this program using this Vista because the “Verify” using predator does not work right, it has tracing display problems and others. I have talked to Bobcad support on this and they keep telling me it is a display driver problem but it is hard to believe because this is a “gaming” computer with a very fast video card, etc.. I have loaded the Bobcad program on another vista laptop by HP and still have the display problems in Predator.

I would also like to know if Bobcad will at some point add a “command” line in the program to type in commands like “Line” to draw relative or absolute line coordinates similar to AutoCAD? This will be a very valuable tool in your software, and also a “snap” feature for all drawing functions. I also find that when selecting a line with Bobcad can be tedious when doing something as simple as erasing a line. Not to compare to AutoCAD, but having a erase feature which give you a small box to select the item to erase would be nice; very simple. This small box can also allow the user to left click and hold to drag a box which creates a bigger box to highlight multiple items to erase.

Something to think about.

Please email me or give me a shout on the below listed number to discuss this further. Thanks.

Regards,
Bill Blanshan

Bug-1: This is likely a post issue or an issue with the way your Mach3 software has been setup. The fact that the first location is executed properly leads me to believe that it is a setting in your controller software.

Bug-2: At the time you sent this email there was an option for you to select Climb or Conventional Milling for the Pocket In and Pocket Out operations. This update to Version22 had been available for download for over a month.

Bug-3: In order to post a program the Toolpath must be computed. If you make a change to the Feature you must Re-Compute the feature before the system will allow you to post the modified program.

Bug-4: This is actually a setting in MillingMachineSetup file. This file can be modified to accoodate the use of any existing post as the default post processor.

You indicate without any prompting, on BobCAD's part, that the software has proven to be user friendly, but the "bugs" you indicated were either functionality that has been added to the system or apparent user error.

You also state that the software "has a habit of crashing all the time". I ask you then, when and where? In this email you do not ellaborate on the crashing that you encounter, but you do not provide any information that would allow BobCAD to either confirm or debuff this statement.

You also say that "I cannot run this program using this Vista because the “Verify” using predator does not work right, it has tracing display problems and others.". The "tracing" issue is a known issue and is resolved by reducing the Hardware acceleration on the graphics card. If your drivers do not support reducing the Hardware acceleration, then another setting must also be modified and this may take some time to determine. But what of these "other problems". You, again, do not provide any information that would allow one to determine the problem or cause, which provides no ability to find or provide a solution for the "other problems".

You have made several suggestions, regarding drawing functions, that we have taken into consideration for upcoming versions of software. So, we thank you for your input.

It is of the utmost importance that one include all relevant data when posting comments and rhetoric regarding anything. By limiting the amount of information you provided to the users on this board to your personal feelings, you have clouded the topic. With all of the BobCAD-CAM software systems, you have the ability to work with the system for 30 days prior to purchasing the program.

I would suggest that you and other users take advantage of the software demos provided by the companies before making a firm decision one way or another for any software program.

As for having a fully functioning demo that allows full program generation: Would it be feasible for you as a shop owner to make the first part for each customer free of charge?

Thank You,
Chris Rinderle
BobCAD-CAM, Inc.

[bobcadbrad]

very well said and it's great to see you back on cnczone.

[Khalid]

this is called response

[sickpaint]

I am a newbie when it comes to cad / cam packages, in fact I am still awaiting the arrival of a new mill which should show up this week. I am a professional software developer by day and work on some rather large programs some of which are at least or more complex then bob cad.

I have given the bob cad demo a test run but to be honest even with my many years of experience in software just cannot get a grasp of even the basic concepts
to even design simple parts. I have little doubt that it is capable of operations even more complex than I would ever wish to perform. I have tried many other cad packages and in every case I am off and running and busting out designs in under a hour. So what is the difference between bob cad and the competitors? One simple thing(good video and or published tutorials).

Every software package in I have ever used and or even programmed has a certain expected chain of events that are expected of the user during usage. Demystifying this chain of events with good tutorials, video's etc is one of the
best ways to increase sales. If I can watch a video or two and immediately see what the software expects for input and the chain of events required for usage I can be off and running in no time.

Make it easy to learn and sales will certainly increase. I am not blasting anyone just making a suggestion based on my own experience. I am just as guilty as anyone when it comes to making software with poor documentation.

I know there are some people that have made some material but it needs to be front center on the download section of the web site to get demo users off and running just as quick as possible.

I think it would also go a long way towards fixing some of the issues in this thread.

[Fadal Error]

I can not believe that the last thread was closed. The frustration that many users have with 2007/V22 does cause some strong opinions, but potential buyers need to read honest reviews. I would not recommend the program to others without a good trial period with the demo (or at all, frankly). It does crash a lot, even on my XP and W2K computers. I highly recommend turning autosave on to a frequent interval. I run into glitches often and tech support was slow to respond. Now our free tech support has run out. This board as well as Sorin's are a great resource to get through the hurdles.

[jhowelb]

Alarm bells every where begin to sound off overtime when a moderator tries to silence a complaint.
Whether it be frivolous or warranted is beside the point and will be seen by onlookers as an attempt to assist in some nefarious scheme.
I find disagreements between customers and suppliers as very enlightening.
I, as a thinking unbiased party, am capable of discerning the difference between buyer remorse and honest complaint without some moderator deciding for me exactly what I should be allowed to read.
Both sides should be allowed to air their concerns without censorship and any other practice would be unfair to both sides in the dispute and the membership as a whole. Otherwise the forum becomes a giant advertising page and not worth the effort to read.

In short, less interference, please!

[Techmachineman]

Dear The One,

Here is what you said.

As for having a fully functioning demo that allows full program generation: Would it be feasible for you as a shop owner to make the first part for each customer free of charge?

That statement is criticizing bobcam as a company. I don't know if you are familiar with competitors out in the market but MANY provide 30 day fully functional versions. I could name plenty for you. You should perhaps look around and see who offers fully functional programs. Your statement says would you cut a part for free. That could be fired right back by saying, would you want to sped 3 thousand for nothing. If the product is that good, the consumer would probablly end up buying in the long run anyways. Lastly, alot of Bobcam users are probably hobbyists as well that dont cut many parts. Correct me if I am wrong.

[dertsap]

Dear The One,

Here is what you said.

As for having a fully functioning demo that allows full program generation: Would it be feasible for you as a shop owner to make the first part for each customer free of charge?

That statement is criticizing bobcam as a company. I don't know if you are familiar with competitors out in the market but MANY provide 30 day fully functional versions. I could name plenty for you. You should perhaps look around and see who offers fully functional programs. Your statement says would you cut a part for free. That could be fired right back by saying, would you want to sped 3 thousand for nothing. If the product is that good, the consumer would probablly end up buying in the long run anyways. Lastly, alot of Bobcam users are probably hobbyists as well that dont cut many parts. Correct me if I am wrong.

i thought that was an odd statement as well , considering the software demo is there to download to begin with , the effort stops there as far as getting the demo out there , unless someone is there manually loading the next demo after one has been downloaded
i don t see anything wrong with a full working demo being offered so that a professional can be sure this is what is needed to run full production efficently , it's like the saying "but it all looked so good on paper"

the thing i can t get over is how many people from bobcad are needed to jump on a dissatisfied customer , is bobcad that fragile that it needs to send out the troops . this isn t the first time ive seen this

bobcad has a lot of happy followers from what ive seen ,and seems like a respectable company , but if some people a not satisfied then so be it , if you go against an unhappy customer then you are only going to hurt yourself
especially when the world is watching
bottom line is the customer is always right

[Techmachineman]

Dertsap I agree. Seems like all the people that are going against the customer here work at bobcam. Well toby doesnt but he might as well. All the customer was doing is voicing his opinion and many bobcam guys came up on the forum. That is unfair. And again, right or wrong, the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[tjones]

There is a difference between using a sponsored forum for opinions and threats. Or any place for that matter. Or using it to post questions and complaints.

If you were supporting a forum for your company and had a dissatisfied customer post on that forum with threats and allegations that may not be completely true (no way of knowing that do we) then would you not try to at least stop the threats?

I would if I had to close the forum to do it. This is CNC Zone but there are rules for the forum and those rules were broken. I myself moderate a web forum and the rules for it could cause banning for some of what is allowed at CNC Zone. (I have seen many other booted on forums by other companies as well.)

Now what you see as fair being a customer may not seem so fair as the one being attacked. I am not taking up for Bobcad's business actions because I do not know the issue as I have never had a part in it. However to publicly cause a company to loose profits can be considered illegal by some state and federal laws if done incorrectly.

Just asking a reasonable complaint be issued without threats. Also when issuing a complaint it is a good ideal to provide specifics as to how to recreate the error. I do have vista running Bobcad and have one issue with graphics. It was not repeated on another system but I have a single line that does not refresh on the top of the graphics window.

I also have a partial crash in graphics only after running the system for quite some time or it may have to do with a certain operation I attempt. However I can not recreate the same issue although I did report it.

I do have a very well working Post (I modified myself with the help of Bobcad). It does create good parts but I do not use it for every conceivable purpose so I can not say others will not have an error that I do not. I have had errors that have been addressed. I have had option requests that have been added. There are still more options that I would like to have added.

Yes I am satisfied with the overall product and yes I have had very good tech support response. Yes I have purchased the yearly support (very cheap I might add as many other companies require a maintenance agreement per year much more than this).

Yes I would recommend the software and I also use Alibre to do most of my design work. (you can also get a free Alibre version that will do many things and export to STP format that Bobcad can read)

[shortbus_cnc]

This is an interesting thread.

The customer is not always right.

But, neither is the company producing products.

If Vista is not supported then it should be plainly written. (I don't know or care if it is currently this is just fact. When I was a kid buying video games I had to read Commodore, Mac, Tandy, Amiga, etc on the sides of boxes to make sure I got the right Chess Master 2000, or Zork.)

Yes, it was my responsibility to select the right one, but it was also the written on the box.

I think the money should have been refunded. I think the sales person should have asked enough investigative questions. I think the customer did mention he was running Vista and therefore the sales person should adjusted his sales forecast accordingly.

Providing a 5, 10, or 15 day full evaluation is not asking too much. (Many software companies do this.) There could be the free public demo that is not full featured and a 5 day evaluation that is available only with a credit card presentation.

Also, the company lost a really good opportunity in this whole exchange. Instead of giving the money back, and keeping the customer contact... and then eventually supporting Vista (that WILL happen right? I mean someday, right? Realistically, Vista is the future... or Apple).

Then when the product supports Vista the company calls this Mr. Customer and says, "Hey, we did it. Full support on Vista. Let me come out and show you." (Or whatever variation of sales approach is used.)

Such a pity. Instead of a Win-Lose, this is a Lose-Lose.

[CNCdude]

First of all I think that "the customer is always right" must have come from a psychiatrist somewhere down the line and is ridiculous. If a "customer" told you that jumping off a bridge would bring you wealth and happiness would you take the plunge? There is nothing wrong with someone talking about an experience they had or an issue they would like assistance with. However, if the actual question or issue is littered or surrounded with garbage, the actual point can tend to be missed. That doesn't do you any good. Sometimes it takes courage to be honest. It takes personal integrity. BobCAD-CAM software does have issues with Vista. What else can I say. However, we do extensive testing and have tested Vista platforms and achieved perfect results. We assist the customer in the best way we can. What we find, which is interesting is that someone that can't help themselves from attempting to make others miserable will frequent chat rooms and web forums because there is a sense that they can get away with tossing garbage around in an effort to upset people just because they themselves are upset. Have you EVER seen anyone who is upset really stick to the facts in a way as to resolve a problem? You inevitably do yourself a disservice when you operate off of "opinion" and "hearsay." When you operate off of FACT, you usually end up with good results that benefit your survival whether it be in business or in life. You're damn right that BobCAD-CAM staff would attempt to defend themselves under a fraudulent attack. You would too. You can expect that to continue. The staff here care about what they do, and yes, we sell a whole lot of software because of it. All day, every day. Keep that in mind. There is a very definite and invariable reason why so many shops purchase BobCAD-CAM software. Just have yourself a look at what it can do for the price. And I strongly recommend that anyone out there who might be looking around, do their homework. Look at the features list versus the cost. Look at the evolution of the product. Look at the service policy and training options. Look for features that you need now and if there is room to grow. Get a live demo. You don't need to sit and cut parts to "see" if the software will work. Look at the code, ask questions and if you feel that in the end you have looked at a product that will suit your needs, then begin negotiations. Everyone wants a good deal. We provide them.
CNC Dude

[Khalid]

Thanks for giving me an oppurtunity for starting a new thread with topic "Customer is always RIGHT? What is your opinion":violin:

[Khalid]

Tell me what is the right place to start that thread