[johnno402002]

Hi,
high-side, you ask a very good question, why would we accept this bad business practice? The fact is we have no choice really, we took a chance, and we don't really have any viable option but wait and hope for the best. If you read through this whole thread from the start, and the Mikini thread, you may see why I ordered a machine from Defeng. I formed the opinion that Defeng is a very good practical engineer, and my opinion on that hasn't changed.

Its not unknown for new small businesses fail in the first year, mostly due to cash flow problems, which was the reason I was happy to pay 100% up front, I didn't want Defeng to fail. I'm not sure what has gone wrong, but it seems to me that Defeng was no longer able to use the workrooms he was working in. I am hopeful that he is in the process of fixing this, but it is just blind faith on my part.

I've also noticed over the years that good engineers and communication don't naturally go together, quite the opposite, they tend to be very efficient in their communications, if there is nothing new to say, they say nothing. This is in contrast with a shyster, they always have a good story. We are not dealing with a whole company here, with sales and marketing departments, just an individual with a vision to create some nice machines, with the reality of the whole business messing up the vision.

I've just ordered a cnc lathe from a manufacturer in China, the process has been quite different to ordering the milling machine, the transaction appears to be registered with a Chinese government court of international arbitration, and I'm only paying 30% up front. It looks like I have a method of recovering the money if it doesn't turn up, but I'm still just dealing with websites and emails, it's still a leap of faith. I'm doing it again because I can't buy what I want here, the available offerings are either too small or too big, and like Goldilocks I'm looking for the one that is just right... and I'm too tight to pay double or triple the cost for something that isn't really what I want. Hopefully I'll get a lathe, rather than a visit from the three bears....

regards,

John

[high-side]

John, I appreciate you taking the time with that logical explanation . I have been following this thread for months, and have read (and re-read parts), but haven't completely read all of the Mikini thread/s
I don't want to come off as someone coming in just to make negative comments, as I am genuinely interested, and in the position to buy at least 1 or possibly 2 SVM-2's for my business.
Defeng is well-spoken, and is an extremely bright engineer w/ an amazing product, and it would just seem to me that since he has been in this business for at least several yrs, he should know what people
come to expect in terms of maintaining some sort of contact in business.
I know the guy must be running ragged trying to get his business off the ground, but you still need to keep in touch regardless. Not "babysit" every waking moment, but just take 5 minutes out of one day... just once a week to post that his business is still up, and he's still breathing.
He was so very detail-oriented in posting every aspect of his build, and to just abruptly stop can make you wonder if something went seriously wrong. (...is he still alive?)
I hope things are busy, but going well for him.
Just my opinion...

regards,

Pat

[aarggh]

Hi Pat, similar to what John stated as his reasons for keeping an optimistic approach with the mill, I came close to buying one myself but I ended up deciding on a larger mill. But having said that, when Defeng surfaces again, if I was after one of these, I don't think I'd hesitate to pull the trigger, albeit with maybe some better assurances of timelines.

I took the plunge some years back and spent for me what was a very, very large sum, on a CNC machine from China, and although it was a simple turnkey product that only had to be assembled and crated, it still took probably 7 months all up, and was a very stressful time in my life. It was a bigger risk than I would normally ever take, but there was no way I could buy the same machine from a vendor here in OZ, as they had around 400-500% markup at the time. And boy did I cop some flack off people here on the forums who thought I was mental, even though it didn't get through their thick skulls that here in OZ there's simply no alternative sometimes.

As others have pointed out, Defeng clearly has a great vision and the technical expertise to pull off a very good product, so knowing what dealing with people/companies in China can be like with the time, cultural, ethical, and business differences, it may take 1 year, or it may him 3 to get fully going, so anyone who's committed can't do anything but be optimistic that he's trying to achieve his vision, but maybe with the usual time and production setbacks of being the creator of a labour of love, but not necessarily a great business manager.

Over the years, now that I have a better understanding of dealing with Chinese companies and people, I have no qualms and buy quite a lot of items from China, but it can be a little different to normal expectations I find.

cheers, Ian

[high-side]

Well, I've tried several attempts over the last weeks to contact Defeng with the contact info johnno402002 provided earlier in the thread. ([email protected] , Yangzhou Tianyuan Chair Co., Ltd.)
No replies from either, or Skyfire directly.
Unfortunately, I'm in the position that I need a 2nd (and 3rd) mill in the size class as the SVM-2 for jobs now . I'll probably purchase an IH/Charter Oak CNC for a 2nd mill.
When it comes to business, I'm not big on taking huge risks, or relying on "blind-faith" that things will work themselves out. Trust is built and can be lost..... Their are some things in business that shouldn't feel like a gamble, like whether or not your equipment will even show up!
At this point, I personally would not send Skyfire a single dime till I see one of his machines actually hit his current customers doorsteps.

I really do hope you guys that have prepaid already get your machines, and all (eventually) goes well for Defeng and his business.

Pat

[Tkamsker]

I right now work on an Solution if someone seeks an SMV-2 like machine but Build in Austria ,..they have 40 years of experience ,..


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[m_c]

I right now work on an Solution if someone seeks an SMV-2 like machine but Build in Austria ,..they have 40 years of experience ,..

I'm interested. Any chance of some more information?

[high-side]

Theirs obviously many that would be interested, including myself.
You starting a new thread, or do you have a website up and running to see the progress?
Thanks,

Pat

[Tkamsker]

Hi ok
long story short
i do have an ( i was in that factory myself ) european build VMC mill in the size of an Tormach or similar.
from defend i wanted (& payed) an ISO30 spindle holders and the pneumatic to ATC my machine.

The company has 40 Years experience in building CNC machines. so i think there are several options (i just rough draw what i think is possible )
Option 0 )
if you are in US buy us goods so get an Novakon or Tormach ,.. if you are in Europe ,...

Option 1)
Buy the machine send the steppers / servos you have choosen to the factory and you get an perfect machine Factory retrofit
i can send you the bom and configs which work for an stepper config based on tripple beast (because of quality and silence run ) or if you like lead shine up to you
configs and drawings for Linuxcnc

Option 2)
if there is enough interest we can try standard config (like my machine ) from factory but this needs some because i then have to chat to the owner about maintenance price delivery time and so on.

There may be an 3rd or an mixture of that options
Right now i begin to think that what Tormach is doing in us should be possible also in Europe ,..

my next step (after vacation ) is to realize an power draw bar for my machine.
2nd Step is to convince the owner of the shop to have an ISO30 ATC Able (like i ordered from defend) using german grippers for a friends machine.
if that works i do ATC mechanic in Winter (electronic i have working on the bridgeport)

And here my new splashguards for my machine http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...iteration.html

thomas

[high-side]

Any of you guys have experience with the Syil mills w/ linear guides? (X6, X7)

[diyengineer]

I've looked into them, and they are pretty decent machines for the money. But once you get into the upper ones they offer your into tormach territory.

[handlewanker]

Hi, at this moment in time I would be happy to just get the basic machine from SKYFIRE.COM without any electronics whatsoever.

That is, a machined set of castings assembled with ballscrews and stepper motors and not even painted.

Judging by the amount of effort that many people go to with converting manual mills to CNC, starting with a dedicated basic machine that only needs finishing would have to be the answer to the need for this type of machine design.

It would beat outlaying a wad for a manual mill, removing a lot of already paid for parts and then retrofitting the CNC bits to attempt to produce the "ideal" machine package that never really gets to the starting gate.

The SKYFIRE designs are dedicated complete CNC packages from the ground up, designed as CNC mills and only for that purpose, but as the packages contains a huge amount of peripherals after the machining stage to make them work, the time and effort to get to the finished product stage that exuded perfection or a product of high integrity appears to have broken the back of the proverbial camel.

If the basic SVM-0 mill has a selling price of $3,500 as a complete package, then I would think the stripped down package could retail for half the amount, buyer to finish off to his/her requirements.

This would beat any retrofitted manual mill project that has dovetails and a quill as the normal starting point to overcome.

Even the spindle packages are buy in off the shelf items, so no supply problems there.

Maybe I see it as a simple solution, but as the machining of the mills was so far advanced, it would appear that the finishing is taking all the time and effort.
Ian.

[carlowens]

so why don't you contact skyfire and see if they'll do that for you? maybe you'll get a refund too.

[Tkamsker]

I think here the 80 20 Rule apply.
But if He responds let US know ...

[handlewanker]

so why don't you contact skyfire and see if they'll do that for you? maybe you'll get a refund too.

Hi, nope.....too far down the track to start watering down the package....it's all or nothing....whatever.

I merely hypothesised that building a basic machine and selling it for the buyer to complete would be the simplest build package and also be more economical than buying in an already manual mill and canabalising it to make a not too efficient CNC device.

I could negotiate on that score if the occasion presented itself, but as I never intended to be a machine builder it will not happen.

However, if the machine was available fully finished mechanically, then with the plethora of electronic devices that do the CNC bit available it would not be far from a plug and play DIY project at most......well within the average CNC builder's capability, as most of the electronics are off the shelf and already working.

The mechanicals are low tech state of the art now, and adding on electronic components is not all that hard to do.

We'll just have to wait and see.
Ian.

[Tkamsker]

As. I Look now really into that subject the Problem is (Europe and us for sure ) that if you Build and selll you are responsible this Means if you sell an Cnc machine it has to be Safe and a Package
But ill Take your Input and See what if to sell machine Building Blocks ,..

[carlowens]

Hi, nope.....too far down the track to start watering down the package....it's all or nothing....whatever.

I merely hypothesised that building a basic machine and selling it for the buyer to complete would be the simplest build package and also be more economical than buying in an already manual mill and canabalising it to make a not too efficient CNC device.

I could negotiate on that score if the occasion presented itself, but as I never intended to be a machine builder it will not happen.

However, if the machine was available fully finished mechanically, then with the plethora of electronic devices that do the CNC bit available it would not be far from a plug and play DIY project at most......well within the average CNC builder's capability, as most of the electronics are off the shelf and already working.

The mechanicals are low tech state of the art now, and adding on electronic components is not all that hard to do.

We'll just have to wait and see.
Ian.

oh i thought you were serious but see now that you were just rambling, don't know what the point of it all was then.why don't you contact them just for fun and report back here with what they tell you? you appear to be the only supporter they have left here, maybe you have some inside access.

[ihavenofish]

skyfire's export license is for complete machines. he cant sell a kit or castings outside china. this was covered early on in this thread.

[johnno402002]

Any of you guys have experience with the Syil mills w/ linear guides? (X6, X7)

Hi Highside, I don't have direct experience with the Syil machines, but this fellow has https://www.youtube.com/user/jeppoification/videos There are some good videos there of an X7 with linear guides, servo motors and a industrial controller, it looks pretty impressive to me.

He's been trying to sell this one, not sure if it's gone yet or not. I would have bought it myself but due to most of my available cash being tied up in another machine order I couldn't scrape up enough to buy it.

regards,

John

[handlewanker]

skyfire's export license is for complete machines. he cant sell a kit or castings outside china. this was covered early on in this thread.

Hi, I must have forgotten the previous posts as it's that far back.....with hind sight I think he would have been better served to have supplied the basic no electronics machine as a first option instead of the complete package which appears to have sunk the ship somewhat, but if there are some export restrictions that prevent that then that would appear to be a tariff control.....can't think why that should be.....is there a law that says no raw castings or part machined items can be exported........at all.......even with a licence?
Ian.

[ihavenofish]

in china no one can sell anything outside the country except a licensed trading company. skyfire created a trading company to sell cnc machines and as such that's all hes allowed to sell. not sure how the spindles hes sold fit under that actually, but I know he specifically said he is not allowed to sell kits or castings..