[helocat]

Just purchased a used 07' HRT160 that came with the tail stock and a black face plate. No chuck.

What kind of 3 jaw chuck will fit on here? All the Haas docs just talk about their chuck. Any suggestions besides the Haa$ chuck?

Also anyone make their own horizontal tombstone set up? Biggest trick I am trying to figure out is how to center and attach it to the HRT.

Thank you,

Mark

[Delw]

Mark
I have the hrt210 but I bought a 8" flat back bison chuck then drilled 6 holes through that way I need NO backing plate.
you need to buy a flat back chuck and a adapter plate OR just drill the holes through. that are on the back side saving the price of a back plate.

One thing I will reccomend DONT BUY A BISON chuck they went to ****. buy a buck chuck its well worth the money. the bison chuck is gritty although it smoothed out a tad after I lapped everything in but its still junk (cause its gritty) however it does hold run out fine.
Haas was selling bision chucks I thought(hopefully they sell a better one now). if you get a gritty chuck send it back cause you will hate it on thin parts.

Gritty meaning when you loosen or tighten it down its not smooth.

Delw

[Delw]

horizontal tombstone set up is easy.
you need a A frame to support it alum works fine. connecting it is easy if I get a chance tonight I will grab a pic of the one I made that allows me to use sub plates on it.
Mines 36" long and can have attachments in 12" increments + endcaps
basically its a 12" 24" and a 36" interchangable horizontal tombstone the endcaps fit for the aframe and the hrt side.

Delw

[helocat]

OK so a blank chuck then drill it. Did you add a locating center on the back? Or just dial it in when you install it?

Thanks for the tip on Bison. I will keep an eye out for another.

horizontal tombstone set up is easy.
you need a A frame to support it alum works fine. connecting it is easy if I get a chance tonight I will grab a pic of the one I made that allows me to use sub plates on it.
Mines 36" long and can have attachments in 12" increments + endcaps
basically its a 12" 24" and a 36" interchangable horizontal tombstone the endcaps fit for the aframe and the hrt side.

Delw

Wow, 36" that is great. I was thinking of 24" but noticed that the Haas fixture-ing system is only 12". I am running this on a TM-1 so 24" is what I want to go with. Please any photos would be great.

Mark

[Geof]

Here are several posts/pictures showing different ways for making a tombstone.

The HRT160 is not very high so you may need to mount it on spacers above the table if you want to rotate through 360 degrees and/or machine parts on more than one side of your tombstone.


http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_m..._off_haas.html Post #16

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...3&d=1262408640

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_m...orce_work.html

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_m...10_rotary.html

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/work_f...fixturing.html

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...2&d=1151711731

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...9&d=1144983095

[Delw]

the chuck I have is a bison 3205, but mines 8" there were screw holes in the back for the plate. I drilled mine through . this way I use long bolts and t nuts to hold my chuck on the hrt.

heres the tomb stone I built this is the second one thats going to hard anodize( per geofs suggestion). the only reason I did it this way is because I had about 75 13" long 1.5 x 5" drops from a job. why not use them on something else.
the ends are all cut square and flat drilled and tapped with 3/8 24 bolts that are heli coiled. also its pinned.
you can see the 12" sections.
you can also see the plate that bolts to the rotary table. when its all assembled then I cut it flat and square while on the machine. cut all the holes for the hardware to use 3/4" tall subplates, then send out to have hard annodized.
I have a few set ups made for some different style parts that we get.
the one pictured is going to be for some plastic boxs that get. 3 operations but there 1000's of them. with the sub plates it should take maybe 5 mins to change plates( still working on the fixturing)

a piece of 4x4 alum stock its much faster and cheaper than they way I went. but like I said I had alot of drops

geof has some awsum fixtures read his posts there well worth it.


I can use it in 12" and 24" length on the haas (vf2ss) and 36" lengths on the Fadal ( have a 40x20 fadal)

[helocat]

Thank you for the posts and photos. Very helpful.

Had time tonight to un box the new (to me) 4th and tail stock. Here is what I have to work with. The Tail stock came with the locating buttons to center in the T-slots. The 4th I see has a location for a centering bar to be bolted on but it is MIA. Is this critical to have? Seams like it would help but I am guessing its just a matter of truing in the face of the 4th like one would do a vise, but on the Y axis.

The plate that came attached to the platen I realize is the adapter the 3 jaw chuck that did not come in the package.

Seeing what I have here how would you suggest setting up a 4x4 12" long tombstone? Since I have the tail stock, seams like it would be ok to just drill the end of the tombstone and use the live center that came with the tail stock. ? Yes no? If not are you milling a stub on the unsupported end for a pillow block bearing? OR milling into the tombstone and pressing in a center less ground bar to go into the pillow block?

As for attaching to the tombstone to the platen, machine a mount that bolts to the tombstone, and bolts to the t-slots in the platen, that has a lip to center on the through hole? Looks like that is what Delw is doing.

I have a small production part I could get 6 parts per side on a 12" long tombstone. Excited about the idea of setting up two sides for op1 and the other two sides for op2.




Mark

[Geof]

Make yourself a key to locate the rotary in a table slot. This makes it easier to both align it parallel with the table travel and true to the tailstock. But don't just trust the key and locating buttons for getting truly precise alignment, there is too much slop.

True up the rotary first by dialing across the face of the platen. Dial up your chuck to make sure it is running true. Then make an alignment bar out of something like C1045 ground finish shafting, that has a center hole for the tailstock and grip this between the chuck and tailstock. Now dial along this on the top and on the sides to check that the tailstock is indeed at the same center height as the rotary, and along the sides to be sure they are inline and parallel to the X travel.

On my rotary setups I try to get things aligned to within 0.0005" over 16 inches.

[Delw]

I like that Key Idea Geof. I never thought of that thanks.

unless your tombstone is light and you are not taking heavy cuts your tail stock will work fine.
if you look at mine carefully the round pc of alum bolts directly to the face plate of the HRT. I never comes off the square blocks unless as its pinned and lock tighted

[helocat]

Make yourself a key to locate the rotary in a table slot. This makes it easier to both align it parallel with the table travel and true to the tailstock. But don't just trust the key and locating buttons for getting truly precise alignment, there is too much slop.

True up the rotary first by dialing across the face of the platen. Dial up your chuck to make sure it is running true. Then make an alignment bar out of something like C1045 ground finish shafting, that has a center hole for the tailstock and grip this between the chuck and tailstock. Now dial along this on the top and on the sides to check that the tailstock is indeed at the same center height as the rotary, and along the sides to be sure they are inline and parallel to the X travel.

On my rotary setups I try to get things aligned to within 0.0005" over 16 inches.

I will knock out a key for it. Did they normally come with one?

Once I pick up a 3 jaw I will do this. For now I need to set up a tombstone. The photos from your set ups help quite a bit. I see in one of your photos the bar you are using for a tombstone goes through the through hole in the 4th. You say you are using a draw bar on the back. Is this bolted directly to the back side of the 4th? Like a washer and nut on the back of the through hole?

I like that Key Idea Geof. I never thought of that thanks.

unless your tombstone is light and you are not taking heavy cuts your tail stock will work fine.
if you look at mine carefully the round pc of alum bolts directly to the face plate of the HRT. I never comes off the square blocks unless as its pinned and lock tighted

This is going on my TM1 so its pretty much light cuts most of the time anyway. I love the mill does a great job, but just can't push it too hard. This is also why I went with a HRT160 over a HRT210. 210 if the price was right would be fine, but the best deal came along for the 160. Yes half the brake capacity but doubt the TM1 will challenge that. Besides I can manually load the 160. However I do like Geof's loading system!

It looked like a full face plate you were using on the tombstone to platen. I will be pushing my Z travel to tap the end of a tombstone but think I can.

Mark

[Geof]

I think I did get keys for my HRT210s but then I didn't use them because they are all mounted to subplates not directly to the table.

The draw bolt through the spindle just uses a washer about 1/4" larger than the bore. Actually it is a stepped washer so it centers in the bore.

[Delw]

Sorry geof, I didnt mean to come off like an ass. ( on the i like the key idea)I just reread it and you said key the rotary to the table slot.

I had thought you said make a key for the rotary table slot(were the t-nuts go) so its easier to aling the tombstone to the rotary face plate. when in home position

BTW I did that this am it it seems to work pretty good. the tombstone alings with in .003 every time and its easier to indicate.( only really have to indicate 1 set of opposite corners and not 2)

[murphdog]

Attached is a pic of a simple 4th axis fixture we use. You could use a drive dog & a pilot on the end of a tombstone with a draw bolt holding it all to the 4th and not use any kind of face plate mount. The washer on the back of the 4th SHOULD NOT be much larger than the bolt pattern on the back side otherwise it could deflect the back plate of the rotary and affect the internal brake. That is what Haas told me when I came up with the idea.
As far as keys. Just make up some that fit the rotary and the t-slots of your machine. The buttons on the bottom of my 2 tailstocks fit my VF2 (5/8) but do not work on my VF4. It has f$%&@!*g metric t-slots for some reason.
Murph

[helocat]

Attached is a pic of a simple 4th axis fixture we use. You could use a drive dog & a pilot on the end of a tombstone with a draw bolt holding it all to the 4th and not use any kind of face plate mount. The washer on the back of the 4th SHOULD NOT be much larger than the bolt pattern on the back side otherwise it could deflect the back plate of the rotary and affect the internal brake. That is what Haas told me when I came up with the idea.
As far as keys. Just make up some that fit the rotary and the t-slots of your machine. The buttons on the bottom of my 2 tailstocks fit my VF2 (5/8) but do not work on my VF4. It has f$%&@!*g metric t-slots for some reason.
Murph

Murph, I like it. Thinking something like this and use my tail stock on a 12" 4x4 tombstone.

With the ability to draw back the tail stock, I wonder if there is enough repeatability to change out the tombstone if I used the drawbar set up. I could see putting a pined plate on the platen. Each cycle pull the draw bar bolt, draw back the tail stock and extract the tombstone, then put another pre-loaded one in. This way we could change out the 24 parts why the mill is chewing away at another 24. Only need +/- .003" on these in house parts.

Mark

[Geof]

....With the ability to draw back the tail stock, I wonder if there is enough repeatability to change out the tombstone if I used the drawbar set up.....Mark

You could probably get good enough repeatability. Actually the hardest is the angular position but you coul do this with a tab extending out to the largest radius possible and fitting over a locating pin on the platen.

But....how much of a gorilla are you? Can you support the 4" x 4" x 12" tombstone plus the parts with one arm almost fully extended while you bring the tailstock in? Weight is a limiting factor with our horizontal rotary fixtures. We could have machines with longer X travel but making the fixtures longer would simply make them too heavy.

[Delw]

make your tombstone to accept tooling plates. this way while your knocking out 24 pcs you can load another plate. then when cycle is finished you unscrew the plates and put knew ones it, or you can buy 1/2 turn positioning locks of Carr lane, there pricey but worht it.

my first TS has just 1/2" dowel pins and a few 3/8 24 helicoiled bolts to hold the plates down. sence I like the fixture so much I am going to splurge for the $60 carr lane lock pins.

if you do it correctly you can bolt all kinds of subplates on the tombstone for a varity of parts using the same hole pattern in your tombstone.

the 12" one I have on now weighs a ton when leaning over a machine the 24" forget it you will never get it on with out dinging it unless you use a crane/lift


Delw

[helocat]

You could probably get good enough repeatability. Actually the hardest is the angular position but you coul do this with a tab extending out to the largest radius possible and fitting over a locating pin on the platen.

But....how much of a gorilla are you? Can you support the 4" x 4" x 12" tombstone plus the parts with one arm almost fully extended while you bring the tailstock in? Weight is a limiting factor with our horizontal rotary fixtures. We could have machines with longer X travel but making the fixtures longer would simply make them too heavy.

Good point. I bet the long steel bar tombstone fixture in your photos is heavy. Yes I was thinking locating pins off the platen. Thank you for sharing your experience, the angular position is something I had not thought about. This will be the first time I have ever set up a 4th.

This brings up a question I have been wondering: When you set up the 4th Is there a angular position off set that is taken to set the A axis origin? Just thinking it would be time consuming trying to dial in the angular position of a fixture to the machine starting point on the A axis.

make your tombstone to accept tooling plates. this way while your knocking out 24 pcs you can load another plate. then when cycle is finished you unscrew the plates and put knew ones it, or you can buy 1/2 turn positioning locks of Carr lane, there pricey but worht it.

my first TS has just 1/2" dowel pins and a few 3/8 24 helicoiled bolts to hold the plates down. sence I like the fixture so much I am going to splurge for the $60 carr lane lock pins.

if you do it correctly you can bolt all kinds of subplates on the tombstone for a varity of parts using the same hole pattern in your tombstone.

the 12" one I have on now weighs a ton when leaning over a machine the 24" forget it you will never get it on with out dinging it unless you use a crane/lift


Delw

Great suggestion. I like the idea of making the tombstone universal with tooling plates. I have room in my center line clearance to table, to add plates. The Carr Lane lock pins look outstanding.

Thank you again for all your help guys! I am going to start modeling this in CAD and order up some bar stock to start the tooling.

Mark

[Geof]

...This brings up a question I have been wondering: When you set up the 4th Is there a angular position off set that is taken to set the A axis origin? Just thinking it would be time consuming trying to dial in the angular position of a fixture to the machine starting point on the A axis....

You just have an A value in your G54 coordinates, or whatever work zero you are using. Just dial across the flat on the tombstone to get it horizontal along the Y travel then go to the offset page, select the A column and push the offset enter key.

[murphdog]

Yes. Once the fixture is mounted & a part is put on the fixture we just indicate a surface on the part and set the work offset. No different than X or Y.
Murph

[murphdog]

Would someone reply with a Carr Lane number for those 1/4 turn lock pins mentioned earlier. I have looked and don't think I have found them.
There was mention of some tooling plates earlier. We do something like that on a base plate in the machine. We have what we call pallets that use dowel pins to locate in the base plate in a jig bushing. Zip out some bolts, swap pallets, bolt in and go. Should also work on a "tombstone" in a smaller scale and not nearly as heavy.
Murph