[marand]

Hello everyone. Was wandering if anyone out there has experiance or owns a Hurco VMX and Haas VSS? I'm in the market for a new machine and am considering these 2. I mainly program on the cnc interface with g codes. More complex parts I use mastercam.
I mainly do one offs and small lots of 10 -50 parts in ferrous and non ferrous material. Job tollerance vary from .0004-.005".

1.What are the pross and cons of each machine?
2 Which machine hold better tolerance? Can they hold .0005" consistantly over the course of a shift.
3. Which machine is more rigid? Which gives better surface finnishes?

Any other comments or info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[underthetire]

I will tell you from a service stand point, as i do not run them.
Buy the HAAS, plain and simple. We have HAAS and Hurco, and some good quality machines as well. The Hurco's are made in taiwan, uber expensive on parts, totally unreliable, and each one is wired like someone built one-offs in the back of there house. I've never had to fix ANY of the HAAS machines we have. I spend at least 10 hours per week fixing a Hurco. Granted, we have more Hurco's than HAAS. The control panel is FAR superior on the HAAS, as it is more like a std machine tool. The only thing in my mind Hurco has going for them, is the guys at the factory. They will respond to your every need. I don't know about HAAS, since I have never called them. The only thing I can say with HAAS, is watch the options, like a spindle chiller, or a decent warranty, or side mount tool changer. Once you start adding some options, you can get a good machine like an Okuma or in some cases even a Mori Seiki.

[bloke]

10 hours a week fixing one machine? Your operators must be virtually chimps. If I were you, I'd consider a different job if I couldn't fix problems quicker than that.
Each machine is wired the same all barring options. It seems to me that anytime you open your mind on here, nothing but hate for Hurco comes out.
You may have had a lifetime of fixing poorly maintained machines but that's not everyone's experience.

[underthetire]

One machine? No we have at least 30 of them. or had. Single shift, prototype work. And no, they are not wired the same. Hell, we bought 2 machines in the same order twice now, 2 ser# apart, and they even have different drives. Yes i hate Hurco's, so does the rest of our service staff. The last batch of Hurco's all lost the hard drives after 16 months of use. We had to replace the Z axis ballscrew on our VMX65 witch i understand, but the new one had .006 of backlash right out of the box, the second one lasted a week, and yes the lube system was checked. 3 rd one went in and has been fine for the last 90 days or so. If you work on REAL machines, you would understand the difference.

[glovebox20]

Hello

Personally, I would choose neither machine if I had to hold .0004 to .0005 tolerance all day long. But, I would choose the Hurco if I was going to do a lot of shop floor programming. Hurco's conversational control is a tough beat when doing simple 2D work. I've been using Hurco's for couple years now and rarely "dry run" the machine cause there wire frame graphics gives me all the confidence I need to start making chips. If you splurge and get the Tool and material Data base option and Solid graphics, it gets even better! The shop I work at have 5 VMX machines from 2003 to 2007 year model and they will hold .0005" if you need them to. Just got to make sure you have a good process/setup.

I've ran HAAS's VF-2 and VF-4 machines in the past, and I would say Hurco has the edge over HAAS when it comes to rigidity. The HAAS's VF series just don't have what it takes when you push them hard in harder materials like steel and tool steel, and it seems it the tools like to stick in the spindles more often too.

However, Hurco's do have some reliability issues, but I don't think it's any worse than HAAS's machines. My shop has never replace the ball screws in their VMX machines, but we did go through a few spindles though. I will say Hurco's customer support is responsive though. Once they took a part off one of there machines in there show rooms just to keep us going.

:rainfro:

[marand]

GLOVEBOX20 and UNDERTHETIRE. Thanks for the response. I have a job shop and we rarely run the machines 10 hours straight. We do have to hold .0005" tolerances frequently. but they are for short runs and on the Haas like many machine we have to fine tune the offsets and check parts regularly. (it holds pretty consitantly)

Conversational programing is the main reason I'm interested in the Hurco and was gonna get a few software options like Tool and Material library, UtilPocket with Helical, DXF Transfer and NC Conversational Merge.

I've just done a test cut on a demo machine and I agree the Hurco does handle it better on steel when it comes to rigidity.

I am concearned about the spindle issue. I've heard on other threads that they do seem to go more often than the Haas.

Do you guys know what it cost to replace a spindle?
Any other thoughts about the 2 machines.

Thanks

[glovebox20]

I like the software options you picked out

I'm not sure what spindles cost, but we were lucky enough to have the warranty cover most of them. Maybe you could ask your local Hurco seller about the cost. At any rate, If there is an extend warranty option, I would think about it. I will be the first one to admit, Hurco's are a love/hate relationship. Love them cause there fast to program and set up, hate them because I wish the machine could deliver more performance in the terms of reliability. You might be better off getting a good G&M machine and have a GOOD CAM system to back it up with. But Drawing, programing, posting, saving, and transferring the G&M program is never any fun vs. programing and running it like you can with a Hurco control.

One strong point I will mention is training new employees off the street is easier with the Hurco controls than a G&M code control. With the Auto Cal function and graphics, it takes a lot of the guess work out of tool path generation.

I personally like the VMX30 machines the most. You Don't have to reach far get to the spindle when changing tools, has the power and rigidity to handle most jobs, and it's a smaller machine to sweep the chips out at end of the day. Although, the bigger VMX 42 and 64 are nice also if you need the extra travels/rigidity.

I'm glad to hear to you made a test cut on a Hurco machine. Personally, I would never buy any machine, especially a new one, with out giving it a test drive first.

[underthetire]

I really don't know how much HAAS spindles are, and the last Hurco spindle that went out, Hurco did not have any. We sent it to rebuild, that was around 6K. The failure was not a machine fault BTW.

Other builders including HAAS have conversational systems as well. With the tolerances your trying for, and steel, I personally would look at different lines before you decide. I have my prefrences, but i'll not share those here.

[Rally]

I like the Hurco for the fast floor programming but other than that I would not recommend the Hurco.
If you are trying to hold a half a thou on them all I can say is "good luck" I don't think that the Hurco is a bad Tool but for tight tolerance and good repeating I would get an Okuma.

[jon0]

Hello

I'm currently looking at a Hurco VM10, on paper the machine looks perfect but some of the comments on reliability worry me, I'm not sure if I'd be better off looking at a Mazak even though they're more expensive, 30k is a lot of money if the a machine keeps breaking down and the Mazak has larger capacity. I have a question for underthetire as his opinion is the least ambiguous, I'm a little confused as to why you continued to buy Hurco machines if they have caused you so many problems, can you explain what about the machine kept you coming back, was it just the price?

[bloke]

He started working at the shop after they had the machines in as far as I gather. He's not too clued up on repairing them so he hates them. Personally, I find them an absolute breeze to repair (but I have been doing it for the last 27 years).
He says above about two machines with different drives - you can specify whether you have Yaskawa M5 or F7 spindle drives and they appear to have ordered both.
The choice is yours but knowing what I know, I'd be happy with a Hurco.

[Captdave]

I design, build and market my own line of products so Hurco was my choice for ease of programming. Design revisions are a snap at the control on the fly, which saves precious time and delays transferring programs. I’m new to VMC’s and have a full time job so getting it up and making chips was a major factor in machine choice. I don’t run it any where near it capacity so I can comment on many of the factors you’re concerned with but I will say that Hurco support has been superior thus far.

The DXF transfer is one option I wish I would have ordered and will be ordering it that now that I know I can justify its cost.

[underthetire]

He started working at the shop after they had the machines in as far as I gather. He's not too clued up on repairing them so he hates them. Personally, I find them an absolute breeze to repair (but I have been doing it for the last 27 years).
He says above about two machines with different drives - you can specify whether you have Yaskawa M5 or F7 spindle drives and they appear to have ordered both.
The choice is yours but knowing what I know, I'd be happy with a Hurco.

Only 4 years with the Hurco stuff. 24 years in service. The early Hurco's were actualy Japanese machines and fairly solid. They ran for 20 years without much trouble really. I can only compare to other lines i've worked on, like Okuma, Mori, Tree, OKK, Mazak, and Shizouka. I can say without a doubt that the Hurco's are the worst wired machines i've seen. We bought our last ones about 2 years ago now, since this place is so big we couldn't stop them before our department found out about it. We have in the last year since bought 1 more HAAS, and 9 Mori Seikis. Most of the machinist like the Hurco controls, but the newer Taiwanese stuff is just not very good. Once the operators got used to the new Mori Mapps programming, they like that as well. As far as the drives go, we have some with Yaskawa, some with Fanuc, some with Baldor, and some with some other off brand thing. Hurco tech support is fine. I will give those guys props at the factory. Just don't expect the guy thats coming to fix your machine to know anything at all. Hurco has switched distributors out here faster than I change my socks.

[bloke]

"Just don't expect the guy thats coming to fix your machine to know anything at all".
That's a far fetched statement. All the service guys in the UK are long term employees of Hurco and have a great pool of knowledge.
The first machining centres Hurco sold were based around NTC frames and were very heavy. Good machines. I assembled enough of them.

[glovebox20]

I can see where underthetire is coming from. The shop I work at bought 4 VMX's (2 of VMX 30, & 2 of the VMX 42) in about a three year span. I don't know about the wiring thing, but the wash down is set up a little bit different on every one of them. A valve here, a valve there, and no valve here? Oh well. They're still my favorite when it comes to programing with out the aid of CAM system's vs the Fanuc or the HAAS control. Although I would very much enjoy of having a chance to compare the Hurco control against the Mazak and the Mori Mapps programming. From what i know, the Mori Mapps control has constant tool engagement angle routines when pocketing witch would be a blast to play around with.

I guess I'm different though. I like the newer Hurco VMX's series over the older BMC's. Mostly because there quicker and more accurate than the BMC's.

[timf]

i have 2 haas vf3 ss with trunions on the tables and hold .001 all day long for the last 5 years. also have hurco vm10 small but no problem holding .001 all day . just got another hurco vm10 and hurco vmu10 5 axis but have only had them a week so far so we'll see but so far the 5 axis is doing great.
i do alot of 3+2 3-d contouring and all works and blends great on both machines.

choosing between haas and hurco came down to delivery time, all the hurcos were in showrooms and i could have within the week, haas was 8 week delivery and none no where to be taken.
funny cause thats why i picked the haas last time, delivery.

[5axisguy]

We have the Hurco's here for our shop guys, the big plus is the conversational programming, fill in the blanks and off you go.. The reliability on the machine is horrible, toolchangers always breaking, software problems, non stop service issues, strange thing is, we had some older Hurco's and they were great. I think the new generation models have issues. As far as hitting .0005 tolerance, that would be possible but only if your operators are constantly indicating thier workpiece in, they drift around during the day. We are currently thinking about going with something else.

[gthlm]

We are in the process of installing a new VMX 64/50t, should be up and running by tomorrow. I can't say one way or the other regarding performance and reliability (will update later though), but I will say contrary to underthetire's comments, the wiring is immaculate. I can't help but get the impression from his posts that the machines he has worked on have been messed around with previously.

Also, I have been tasked with supervising the installation following a botched/rushed install of a turning centre (not hurco) a few weeks ago. The two Hurco men have been professional, efficient and conscientious in their work and have done the job properly.

[underthetire]

Nope. Bone stock.

[gthlm]

Nope. Bone stock.

How old are your machines? Maybe they had a bad run for while? The one sitting on our floor was built in march this year and the wiring is honestly very good. The next newest hurco I've worked on is a '94, so everything inbetween is unknown to me.

BTW, I didn't mean any offense to you in my comment about your posts, it was just they way they read to me.