[John Crawford]

As an indicator of how common (and possibly how good) a program is, go to monster.com and search for jobs using the program name as a search word. Here's what I found 5 minutes ago.

Search Term Number of Jobs
Mastercam 183
Alibre 1
BobCAD 3
Surfcam 36
Gibbscam 8

Mastercam must have something going for it. Whether it's best for your application is hard to say, but if you should ever need to hire someone to run a CAM program there appears to be a big pool of experienced Mastercam users to draw from.

Also take a look at how many threads are posted for various programs in the CAM Software section of CNC Zone. I noticed there are a large number of postings in the BobCAD forum which is not reflected in the small number of job openings for BobCAD users on monster.com, so this technique isn't fool proof.

[katiebo]

Like machines themselves, software and its use requires support. One nice thing about software is that the support can comes in many forms other that from the reseller. Mastercam has the edge from this perspective I beleive. Support can be found on many forums and is is also taught in many community colleges.

[PBMW]

Mastercam does in fact have one of the best support sites out there. The dealer support is outstanding as well. I have had real head scratchers over the years and gotten an answer in literaly 2 minutes
Cam software is something that you need to look at in light of needs. Not cost. My second seat of Mastercam (level 3 mill, solids, level 1 lathe) paid for itself in two weeks.
You also would be well served to look at the work you would LIKE to be doing and move towards that.
I would take your most difficult part, invite the sales guys in and spring your part on them when they get there. That way you get an honest demonstration of the software.

[Mermaid]

KatieBo,
Are you using Mastercam?

[katiebo]

I am using it in an educational setting. I have completed the first of two classes currently offered at my local community collegeand am currently enrolled in the second. My instructor works for the local Mastercam reseller as their director of training (really just a fancy title meaning that he instructs at all their training seminars). However, once I buy my machine I will be purchasing a seat of it myself.

[307startup]

MC, what you are doing is illegal, even if you can justify it in your head. But I will say lots of have done it or know someone that is doing the same thing you are doing. It's a temporary position or a stepping-stone to a shop. If you start a fire on your band saw or mill by accident and it burns down your house you just lost your house. NO homeowners insurance it going to pay for it when they find out you had equipment in your garage and you were excepting payment for products you were making. So now you have no house and a mortgage still to pay. Like Donkey said if one of your friends gets hurt he will sue you for alot of money or at least you will loose a friend. To me that not worth 100K per year. And not to mention that you are not paying taxes like you should. But hey your happy!!! Things are good now but if something should slip, No house, No friends and the government will be all over you.

I keep wondering to myself when men lost their nuts, lost their spines and stopped thinking for themselves...just because something may or may not be LEGAL, ie in black&white through legislation, does not mean that it is RIGHT. It's not legal to have anal sex or receive fellatio in some states because it falls under a sex offense statute called SODOMY. Does that mean if you and your partner (of legal age and mental stature) consensually engage in these acts that you should be prosecuted...or that you did something wrong? Man, to think this country was started by a bunch of REBELS & TRAITORS...good thing they weren't afraid of what's legal or illegal...you wouldn't be able to run your neck about how this person is wrong, or how morally upstanding you are because you follow this law or that law...because our form of government and the whole American ideal of thought wouldn't be allowed.

[PBMW]

Well, We just shook hands on a HP5100 Daewoo Horizontal and a Puma 2000Y live tooled turning center
The Horiz comes with 116 tools, 14k, tool management, AI NANO, A ton of options, Laser tool probe, spindle probe. Yada Yada.
We've negotiating a building, so we're putting the delivery off till the end of June
Lots of money but I'm stoked!!
They offered me enough money for my SL10 that I couldn't turn them down.

I know I've whined about this machine but it HAS made me a lot of money. But on the other hand, it HAS spent a lot of time being down.

A live tooled Y axis lathe is REALLY going to open up some opportunities for my shop.

[slatern44]

Sounds like some chips will really be flying soon. Thats great news, but I'm going to get my new Robodrill before you get your new toys. Haha.

[PBMW]

Oh fine then....You get yours first.....
I have to call the guy about the building this morning and see what's up...

[Geof]

Moving into a new building, installing new machines, you are a glutton for punishment. We have been in the same location for fifteen years and are finally starting to get a bit tight, and I dread having to move my business.

[PBMW]

Moving into a new building, installing new machines, you are a glutton for punishment. We have been in the same location for fifteen years and are finally starting to get a bit tight, and I dread having to move my business.

Yea, I been called that before....
We're just out of room though. I have four machines in my shop right now. I bought a 916c Doall saw six months ago and it's sitting tarped in the driveway. No room. I fell into a great deal on a 4020 Akira Seiki and bought it. Had to put it into storage because of no room. It's time we moved. We have REALLY grown in the past three years.

[Geof]

.....We're just out of room though.....

Before I moved into this building I was occupying three small units totalling 2500 square feet. My guys didn't need to walk far between machines.

Then I was able to swing a deal and get the building I am in at a good rate because it had been vacant for years so we moved into 11,500 square feet, and rattled around like a pea in a pod for about seven years. We only needed about 4000 square feet for comfort. But I am so glad I made the move and squeezed out the extra money to pay rent on space we didn't need, during the past eight years we have expanded to fill every inch of space. Also during the same time our revenue grew almost tenfold, but our rent payments went up only 10%, and our current lease is good to August 2011.

This is sort of related to your original topic; to be successful in business sometimes you need to stick your neck out, and occasionally it might get chopped off. But if you never do it probably you will never get anywhere.

[DareBee]

Mermaid

I have been using VisualMill for many years. It has some quirks, but most software does. I find it (mostly) very logical and easy to use. Bear in mind I am on the pro version.
IMO Using MasterCAM along with Alibre doesn't make much sense. Alibre is basically an entry level 3d CAD and MasterCAM is bottom-end high-range (expect to pay 6-10G up front plus 1-2g yearly maint for MCAM).
Just because a google search shows the most hits on MasterCAM does not mean it is the greatest going. It is kinda like AutoCAD, was a pioneer in the CAD industry, was the best for a long time, has a massive amount of users - has also been an obsolete archaic dinosaur for at least 8 years - but you will get the most hits on it doing a google search, do to its massive user base.
I am rambling on now, Alibre will get you going in the right direction.
OneCNC with the modeling package may be a good consideration as well.
Congrats on the new machine.

[katiebo]

Mermaid,

DareBee brings up some good points regarding software popularity.

You and your husband are going to have to ask yourself some of the following questions:

1) What is the purpose of the design software? (New product and assembly design, tooling design, both...)

2) Who is going to be using the software on a daily basis? (Your husband, one of your current machinists, a new hire...)

3) Where will the person get training and support?

If the software you need has to serve as a design tool for anything other than tooling (and AutoCad is no longer working for you) then I would consider Solidworks.

For machining MasterCam is an awesome product. It is fairly easy to learn and very full featured. However, I would not recommend it as a realistic design tool. While it can perform design fuctions it is optimized for machining.

[Geof]

....You and your husband are going to have to ask yourself some of the following questions:....

And I will stick my nose in here and strum my favorite tune.

Remember the 'old fashioned way', actually hand coding programs.

If you are doing one-offs or in the low hundreds maybe forget it and just get enough hand coding ability to edit CAM posts.

If you get into thousands of parts and if the design is one that can be hand coded, then you will get faster running programs. Faster can be anything from a few percent off the cycle time up to reducing it to a quarter or less. This does depend on your CAM program and experience, but when seconds per tool count, this can add up to noticeable money over many parts.

[gizmo_454]

If you get into thousands of parts and if the design is one that can be hand coded, then you will get faster running programs. Faster can be anything from a few percent off the cycle time up to reducing it to a quarter or less. This does depend on your CAM program and experience, but when seconds per tool count, this can add up to noticeable money over many parts.

I am with Geof on this one. I rarely use our CAD/CAM software to write my programs. In fact, when I do, I still edit it manually to help optimize it. Every second counts when running thousands of parts!!

Gizmo

[Rocko1]

Mermaid,
I would go with a mainstream CAD package that everyone from fortune 500 down uses. I would pick SolidWorks as the cad package. It is moderately priced and has all the 3d tools required plus its import export capability for file formats is great. As far as all in one packages, they have alot to be desired. They are never as good in the CAD department as a dedicated CAD program. Also remember they must split their development dollars and time between CAD and CAM parts of their package. As far as MasterCam, I consider it a mainstream CAM package that is a good all around choice for a contract machine shop. Yes their are better CAM packages for mold work but it is a good safe package to choose. The program use to be unfriendly to new users learning its cryptic method of creating tool paths but they have worked on that area. Gibbs is a good program for its ease of use and fast toolpath creation. It does need a little redoing and is getting ready for a revamping of its SolidSurfacer module (3axis) this summer to add more mold making capabilities. If I was a machine shop today I would go with MasterCam and Solidworks. I currently use SW and Gibbs.

[mactec54]

Hi Mermaid
It looks like you have everyones blood running hot this is a good post keep it up guys if you can.
I to have been looking at the Haas mini mill & placed the order 3-26-08 so got my discount, the mini mill2 was my choice to but it is not being made at this time but is due to be released by the end of April which could take some more time before it gets to market like 2/3 months may be more, If you are doing s/s parts on the manual with no trouble the mini mill will do it to & a 6000rpm spindle will work fine for the type of work you are doing Just take a look at your manual machines & see what spindle HP & RPM you have, this will give you a good guide. The Mini Mill has a 7.5 HP spindle motor I dont think your manual machines will have any were near this & they are doing the work for you, If you need some help with programs for the machine you can PM me

The only thing that has got me buying a Haas is the repair service no others can match it, I have a high end machine down now for 3 weeks & will be another 2 weeks for the parts to come with Haas it's mostly next day
Just read your other post the Haas machine you are getting will work well I looked at that one also but with the large enclosure I did not have enough room for it enjoy

[JROM]

WOW Where do I start? I could give you 10 pages on this subject!
I know a guy who has run his own shop for more then 10 years. He runs around in dirty tee shirts and old jeans, he only buys used machines and spends a lot of time fixing them. But yet he makes a good living and is happy with his lot in life. Then I know people who have nothing but mori & other high end equipment all bought brand new and kept shiny at all times. They run around in Guchi loafers and drive $80'000 cars. It all boils down to who your customers are. Robert Yates would not even see the guy in the tee shirt if you get my drift. As far as the kind of machines you should buy, that is driven by the kind of work you are going to do. I set up a shop to build pistons for NASCAR motor builders. We are talking people who have all the money in the world and don't care what it costs. They just want the very best part they can get and they are willing to pay anything it costs to make it happen. These guys want to hold .0002 on form, size and squareness and they have the equipment to check the parts to make sure they are good. So you have to have the equipment to pull that off. On the other hand I agree that 95 percent of all machine shop work is not that way and lesser equipment works just fine. The old racer said it best "HOW FAST YOU WANT TO GO, HOW MUCH YOU GOT TO SPEND?"

[orizaba]

I have to admit I fall into #5 but aspire for #4.
I bought a 1986 Supermax on E-bay ( I know, I know, e-bay, mill -really?) because I had an idea for a part I wanted to build. I took the part to a national convention and it was a hit. So I had to get a bigger, better machine. The second mill is an HH Roberts with Anilam 3300 Mk conversational software. ( I assume this was an upgrade) Over the last six months I have self tought G code and conversational, to the point I know what a post processor is, and that mine dosent work. I have a contract signed on my desk for every part I can build, but cannot get the (&%$##@) post working.

To get back to your question. I need (wanted) 3D ability and a newer machine that actually had memory and could store more than 999 lines of code.

Matt